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Re: Thinking outside the square about τοῦτο

Posted: July 14th, 2014, 8:58 am
by Jonathan Robie
Jason Yuh wrote: Anyway, the computer search is not to determine which option is correct--even I'm not that naive; the computer search is to determine the probability/possibility of the various options listed. Hence, the scope of this study is syntax.
I think this can be useful for establishing the possibility - if you can find other examples of a construction you think you see, that is helpful.

Probability is another thing. If two interpretations are reasonable, it's very hard to make a valid statistical argument about which interpretation was intended.

Correction - Substituting other possibilities

Posted: July 15th, 2014, 12:51 am
by Stephen Hughes
The worst aspect, I find (as a high-volume user), of B-Greek is a user's inability to post hoc correct mistakes that later become very obvious. Things such as missing references, spelling mistakes, or in this case a glaringly obvious compositional error. I guess that the resulting record of errors suits some people's personality types and cultural expectations. Personally, I was brought up to right the wrongs I've done as best I can, not just to say sorry and move on.

I had thought of these sentences in my mind correctly before writing, but during the recording of my thoughts, I left the same mistake uncorrected three times.
Stephen Hughes wrote:
Ephesians 2:8 (ὃ ... ἐστιν for τοῦτο) wrote:τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ τῆς πίστεως, καὶ οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν ἐστίν· θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον·
I think this refers to the phrase τῇ ... χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ τῆς πίστεως
Ephesians 2:8 (ἣ ... ἐστιν for τοῦτο) wrote:τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ τῆς πίστεως, καὶ οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν ἐστίν· θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον·
I think this refers to πίστις "faith".
Ephesians 2:8 (αἳ ... εἰσίν for τοῦτο) wrote:τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ τῆς πίστεως, καὶ αἳ οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν εἰσίν· θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον·
I think that this refers to both χάρις "grace" and πίστις "faith", as at the start of the epistles.
Those three καὶ shouldn't be there - that is the danger of a lazy man's cut-and-paste then change-a-little methodology.
Stephen Hughes wrote:I'm sure you could think of other possibilities, and then try to think about what they would more readily refer to.
This means, at least, that ἐστίν / εἰσίν could become whatever other tense that you might think possible.

The corrected versions are as follows:
Ephesians 2:8 (ὃ ... ἐστιν for τοῦτο) wrote:τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ τῆς πίστεως, οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν ἐστίν· θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον·
I think this refers to the phrase τῇ ... χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ τῆς πίστεως
Ephesians 2:8 (ἣ ... ἐστιν for τοῦτο) wrote:τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ τῆς πίστεως, οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν ἐστίν· θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον·
I think this refers to πίστις "faith".
Ephesians 2:8 (αἳ ... εἰσίν for τοῦτο) wrote:τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ τῆς πίστεως, αἳ οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν εἰσίν· θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον·
I think that this refers to both χάρις "grace" and πίστις "faith", as at the start of the epistles.
_____________

There is of course a less stressed word-order for those phrases too, eg. ὃ οὐκ ἔστιν ἐξ ὑμῶν, etc.

Because καὶ separates phrases, the καὶ ὃ I wrote seems to refers forward to something in its present phrase, not back to the previous phrase as I was wanting to express.

Re: Correction - Substituting other possibilities

Posted: July 15th, 2014, 7:10 am
by Kirk Lowery
Stephen Hughes wrote:The worst aspect, I find (as a high-volume user), of B-Greek is a user's inability to post hoc correct mistakes that later become very obvious. Things such as missing references, spelling mistakes, or in this case a glaringly obvious compositional error. I guess that the resulting record of errors suits some people's personality types and cultural expectations. Personally, I was brought up to right the wrongs I've done as best I can, not just to say sorry and move on.
I can understand your frustration. Speaking as the site administrator for the Biblical Hebrew Forum, I know that there is the technical possibility to permit a specific user to edit their own posts. This does not require becoming a moderator. But fundamentally it is an issue of trust. I'd recommend you contact one of the moderators or Jonathan Robie about this possibility.

Re: Correction - Substituting other possibilities

Posted: July 15th, 2014, 8:04 am
by Jonathan Robie
Kirk Lowery wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:The worst aspect, I find (as a high-volume user), of B-Greek is a user's inability to post hoc correct mistakes that later become very obvious. Things such as missing references, spelling mistakes, or in this case a glaringly obvious compositional error. I guess that the resulting record of errors suits some people's personality types and cultural expectations. Personally, I was brought up to right the wrongs I've done as best I can, not just to say sorry and move on.
I can understand your frustration. Speaking as the site administrator for the Biblical Hebrew Forum, I know that there is the technical possibility to permit a specific user to edit their own posts. This does not require becoming a moderator. But fundamentally it is an issue of trust. I'd recommend you contact one of the moderators or Jonathan Robie about this possibility.
Let's discuss that over here:

http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/vie ... 653#p16508