Where do beginners go these days?

Anything related to Biblical Greek that doesn't fit into the other forums.
Jonathan Robie
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Where do beginners go these days?

Post by Jonathan Robie »

B-Greek once had many more beginning and intermediate Greek readers who were reading the New Testament, got confused by a phrase, and asked questions about it. Later, other forums popped up that did the the same.

These days, I see a lot less traffic on any of these sites. Do beginning and intermediate students have better access to the resources they need? Are they finding people to answer their questions reliably in other places? Are there simply fewer beginning and intermediate Greek students?

Does anyone here have a good read on what is happening?
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Jason Hare
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Re: Where do beginners go these days?

Post by Jason Hare »

Jonathan Robie wrote: November 2nd, 2024, 3:47 pm B-Greek once had many more beginning and intermediate Greek readers who were reading the New Testament, got confused by a phrase, and asked questions about it. Later, other forums popped up that did the the same.

These days, I see a lot less traffic on any of these sites. Do beginning and intermediate students have better access to the resources they need? Are they finding people to answer their questions reliably in other places? Are there simply fewer beginning and intermediate Greek students?

Does anyone here have a good read on what is happening?
Nowadays people don’t really use or like forums. They prefer social media sites, YouTube, and Discord.
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Shirley Rollinson
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Re: Where do beginners go these days?

Post by Shirley Rollinson »

Jason Hare wrote: November 2nd, 2024, 6:24 pm
Jonathan Robie wrote: November 2nd, 2024, 3:47 pm B-Greek once had many more beginning and intermediate Greek readers who were reading the New Testament, got confused by a phrase, and asked questions about it. Later, other forums popped up that did the the same.

These days, I see a lot less traffic on any of these sites. Do beginning and intermediate students have better access to the resources they need? Are they finding people to answer their questions reliably in other places? Are there simply fewer beginning and intermediate Greek students?

Does anyone here have a good read on what is happening?
Nowadays people don’t really use or like forums. They prefer social media sites, YouTube, and Discord.
I have fewer serious Greek students in the online classes that I teach at ENMU. Most of my current students are taking Greek (as an alternative to Spanish, French etc) as a foreign Language for their General Education requirements. And some of this year's group thought they were going to learn about Zeus and his girlfriends.
billmorgan
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Re: Where do beginners go these days?

Post by billmorgan »

hi everyone, i just want to ask how to learn vocabulary. because i have tried many ways but it doesn't work. now i am very tired with this.
Jonathan Robie
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Re: Where do beginners go these days?

Post by Jonathan Robie »

billmorgan wrote: November 11th, 2024, 5:40 am hi everyone, i just want to ask how to learn vocabulary. because i have tried many ways but it doesn't work. now i am very tired with this.
This depends partly on how far along you are in Greek and what your learning style is. For me, the best way to learn is by looking at lots of examples. If your Greek is up to it, and you have the right software (e.g. Logos, Paratext, Accordance), you can use a dictionary or a Word Study Tool to see what senses a word has, and look at examples of each sense.

You can also use GPT for this. For instance:

GPT Query:
Show me examples of ἕως (heōs), illustrating each sense of the word.
GPT Result:
Here are examples of the Greek word **ἕως** illustrating its different senses in both temporal (time) and spatial (space) contexts. These examples help clarify how **ἕως** functions and what it typically implies.

1. Temporal Sense ("Until"):
Meaning: Marks a boundary in time, specifying the point up to which something occurs or continues.
Example: Matthew 5:18
- Greek: ἀμὴν γὰρ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἕως ἂν παρέλθῃ ὁ οὐρανὸς καὶ ἡ γῆ...
- Translation: "For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away..."
- Explanation: Here, *ἐως* indicates the time up to the event of "heaven and earth passing away." There’s no inherent implication of what happens afterward, so it’s simply a temporal limit.

Example: Matthew 1:25
- Greek: καὶ οὐκ ἐγίνωσκεν αὐτὴν ἕως οὗ ἔτεκεν υἱόν...
- Translation: "And he knew her not until she had given birth to a son..."
- Explanation: This use of *ἐως* marks a boundary of time during which something was true (not knowing her). The context may imply a change afterward, but *ἐως* itself does not establish what happens after the birth.

Additional examples of temporal sense:
- Greek: ἕως ἡμέρας τρίτης ἀναστήσομαι.
Translation: "Until the third day, I will rise again."

- Greek: ἕως οὗ ἔρχομαι.
Translation: "Until I come."

- Greek: ἕως τοῦ νῦν, οὐδείς με ἐπηρώτησεν.
Translation: "Until now, no one has asked me."

2. Spatial Sense ("Up to" or "As far as"):
Meaning: Marks a spatial boundary, indicating the point or location up to which something extends.
Example: Matthew 24:31
- Greek: καὶ ἀποστελεῖ τοὺς ἀγγέλους αὐτοῦ μετὰ σάλπιγγος μεγάλης, καὶ ἐπισυνάξουσιν τοὺς ἐκλεκτοὺς αὐτοῦ ἐκ τῶν τεσσάρων ἀνέμων ἀπ’ ἄκρων οὐρανῶν ἕως τῶν ἄκρων αὐτῶν.
- Translation: "And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
- Explanation: Here, *ἐως* is used in a spatial sense, indicating the extent or distance across the heavens. It defines the full span (from one end to the other) without suggesting what happens at those endpoints.

Example: Acts 1:8
- Greek: καὶ ἔσεσθέ μοι μάρτυρες ἔν τε Ἱερουσαλὴμ καὶ ἐν πάσῃ τῇ Ἰουδαίᾳ καὶ Σαμαρείᾳ καὶ ἕως ἐσχάτου τῆς γῆς.
- Translation: "And you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."
- Explanation: Here, *ἐως* is used spatially to indicate the geographic extent of the witnessing mission "to the ends of the earth." The phrase establishes a spatial boundary without further implication.

Additional examples of spatial sense:
- Greek: ἔως τοῦ ποταμοῦ.
Translation: "As far as the river."

- Greek: ἕως τῆς ἄκρας τῆς πόλεως.
Translation: "Up to the edge of the city."

- Greek: ἕως οἴκου Δαυὶδ.
Translation: "Up to the house of David."

3. Temporal Sense ("While" or "As Long As"):
Meaning: Indicates a duration of time during which an action takes place, often used in narrative contexts.
Example: John 9:4
- Greek: ἐμὲ δεῖ ἐργάζεσθαι τὰ ἔργα τοῦ πέμψαντός με ἕως ἡμέρα ἐστίν
- Translation: "We must work the works of him who sent me while it is day."
- Explanation: Here, *ἐως* indicates the duration of time ("while it is day") during which work can happen. It implies that the activity should continue as long as daylight remains, without specifying what happens when daylight ends.

Additional examples of temporal sense ("while" or "as long as"):
- Greek: ἕως ἡμέρα ἐστὶν, δεῖ ἐργάζεσθαι.
Translation: "While it is day, we must work."

- Greek: ἕως ζῇς, μετὰ σοῦ ἔσομαι.
Translation: "As long as you live, I will be with you."

- Greek: ἕως ἔχῃς τὸ φῶς, περιπάτει.
Translation: "While you have the light, walk in it."

4. Indefinite Temporal Extension ("Even Until"):
Meaning: Indicates a time frame that extends indefinitely until an unspecified or unknown point.
Example: Matthew 28:20
- Greek: καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ μεθ’ ὑμῶν εἰμι πάσας τὰς ἡμέρας ἕως τῆς συντελείας τοῦ αἰῶνος.
- Translation: "And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."
- Explanation: Here, *ἐως* marks the duration of Jesus’s presence "to the end of the age." The word establishes a limit (the end of the age), but it does not necessarily imply what happens beyond that limit.

Additional examples of indefinite temporal extension:
- Greek: ἕως τῆς συντελείας τοῦ κόσμου.
Translation: "Until the end of the world."

- Greek: ἕως τοῦ αἰῶνος.
Translation: "Until eternity."

- Greek: ἕως τοῦ καιροῦ τοῦτο.
Translation: "Until that time."

Summary

- *ἐως* primarily establishes a boundary—whether in time (indicating “until”) or space (indicating “up to”).
- It can imply change, continuation, or termination, but these implications arise from context, not from *ἐως* itself.
- In some cases, *ἐως* simply defines a limit with no inherent expectation for what follows, so context is crucial in interpreting any further implications.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Jonathan Robie
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Re: Where do beginners go these days?

Post by Jonathan Robie »

And a second step, if you choose to go the GPT route, is to leave out all that English, make sure you understand the Greek, and read each sentence for a give sense out loud several times. That makes you focus on the word, in a given sense, in context of a Greek sentence.

In effect, you are using GPT to create sentences to practice so that you can be reading real Greek to internalize the meaning.

GPT Request:
Now list just the Greek sentences for each sense. Keep the sense title, leave the rest out. Give a citation for each quote.
GPT Response:
1. Temporal Sense ("Until")

- ἀμὴν γὰρ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἕως ἂν παρέλθῃ ὁ οὐρανὸς καὶ ἡ γῆ... (Matthew 5:18)
- καὶ οὐκ ἐγίνωσκεν αὐτὴν ἕως οὗ ἔτεκεν υἱόν... (Matthew 1:25)
- ἕως ἡμέρας τρίτης ἀναστήσομαι. (Matthew 27:64)
- ἕως οὗ ἔρχομαι. (Luke 19:13)
- ἕως τοῦ νῦν, οὐδείς με ἐπηρώτησεν. (John 16:24)

2. Spatial Sense ("Up to" or "As far as")

- καὶ ἀποστελεῖ τοὺς ἀγγέλους αὐτοῦ μετὰ σάλπιγγος μεγάλης, καὶ ἐπισυνάξουσιν τοὺς ἐκλεκτοὺς αὐτοῦ ἐκ τῶν τεσσάρων ἀνέμων ἀπ’ ἄκρων οὐρανῶν ἕως τῶν ἄκρων αὐτῶν. (Matthew 24:31)
- καὶ ἔσεσθέ μοι μάρτυρες ἔν τε Ἱερουσαλὴμ καὶ ἐν πάσῃ τῇ Ἰουδαίᾳ καὶ Σαμαρείᾳ καὶ ἕως ἐσχάτου τῆς γῆς. (Acts 1:8)
- ἕως τοῦ ποταμοῦ. (Joshua 3:17, Septuagint)
- ἕως τῆς ἄκρας τῆς πόλεως. (Nehemiah 3:20, Septuagint)
- ἕως οἴκου Δαυὶδ. (1 Kings 2:33, Septuagint)

3. Temporal Sense ("While" or "As Long As")

- ἐμὲ δεῖ ἐργάζεσθαι τὰ ἔργα τοῦ πέμψαντός με ἕως ἡμέρα ἐστίν. (John 9:4)
- ἕως ἡμέρα ἐστὶν, δεῖ ἐργάζεσθαι. (John 11:9)
- ἕως ζῇς, μετὰ σοῦ ἔσομαι. (Joshua 1:5, Septuagint)
- ἕως ἔχῃς τὸ φῶς, περιπάτει. (John 12:35)

4. Indefinite Temporal Extension ("Even Until")

- καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ μεθ’ ὑμῶν εἰμι πάσας τὰς ἡμέρας ἕως τῆς συντελείας τοῦ αἰῶνος. (Matthew 28:20)
- ἕως τῆς συντελείας τοῦ κόσμου. (Matthew 13:39)
- ἕως τοῦ αἰῶνος. (Psalm 90:2, Septuagint)
- ἕως τοῦ καιροῦ τοῦτο. (Daniel 8:17, Septuagint)
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Jonathan Robie
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Re: Where do beginners go these days?

Post by Jonathan Robie »

I also find it helpful to learn words in clusters of related meaning. A prompt that can help with that - you can then decide whether to learn some of these at the same time. If you want to learn a word from this cluster, go back to the earlier messages and use those promptss to learn the new word.

GPT Request:
What other Greek words have meanings related to ἕως?
GPT Response:
Several other Greek words convey meanings related to **ἕως** (*heōs*), especially in terms of marking boundaries in time or space. Here are some key words with similar or related meanings:

1. μέχρι (mechri)
- Meaning: "Until," "up to," or "as far as"
- Usage: Like ἕως, μέχρι can indicate a temporal or spatial limit. It often marks an endpoint or extent, similar to "up to" or "until" in English.
- Example: μέχρι τοῦ τέλους (mekhri tou telous) – "until the end" (Hebrews 3:6)

2. ἄχρι (achri)
- Meaning: "Until," "up to"
- Usage: This word is functionally similar to μέχρι and often interchangeable with ἕως. It is frequently used in the New Testament to indicate a temporal limit.
- Example: ἄχρι ἡμέρας (achri hēmeras) – "until the day" (Philippians 1:10)

3. πρίν (prin)
- Meaning: "Before" (with a focus on time)
- Usage: πρίν introduces actions or states that happen prior to a specific event, contrasting with ἕως, which marks a period leading up to a boundary.
- Example: πρὶν ἢ Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι, ἐγώ εἰμι (prin ē Abraam genesthai, egō eimi) – "before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58)

4. ἄνω (anō)
- Meaning: "Up to," "above" (primarily spatial)
- Usage: This word has a spatial connotation, often indicating a limit or direction (upward). It differs from ἕως in that it is not typically used to mark temporal boundaries but rather spatial or hierarchical ones.
- Example: ἄνω τῶν ἄστρων τοῦ οὐρανοῦ (anō tōn astrōn tou ouranou) – "above the stars of heaven" (Isaiah 14:13, Septuagint)

5. μέχρις (mechris)
- Meaning: "Up to," "until"
- Usage: A variant form of μέχρι, often found in earlier Greek texts. It can imply the same kinds of limits as μέχρι and ἕως.
- Example: μέχρις ὧδε (mechris hōde) – "up to this point" (Acts 20:38)

6. εἰς (eis)
- Meaning: "Into," "to," "until" (occasionally)
- Usage: Primarily meaning "into" or "to" in spatial terms, εἰς can also convey a temporal limit when combined with time-related phrases, indicating a sense of "up to" a certain point.
- Example: εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα (eis ton aiōna) – "unto the age" or "forever" (John 6:51)

7. πρό (pro)
- Meaning: "Before"
- Usage: This word is used to indicate something happening before a certain event or time, often with a focus on sequence rather than extent.
- Example: πρό τοῦ γενέσθαι (pro tou genesthai) – "before it happened" (Matthew 6:8)

Each of these Greek words conveys a sense of boundaries or limits, whether in time, space, or sequence. They may overlap with ἕως in meaning but often carry specific nuances or slightly different connotations based on context.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Jonathan Robie
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Re: Where do beginners go these days?

Post by Jonathan Robie »

billmorgan wrote: November 11th, 2024, 5:40 am hi everyone, i just want to ask how to learn vocabulary. because i have tried many ways but it doesn't work. now i am very tired with this.
If my last three posts were just too much ... let me know what kind of vocabulary you are trying to learn. The first words in a beginning grammar?

Give me a list of words, and let's play with possible ways to memorize them ...
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Ken M. Penner
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Re: Where do beginners go these days?

Post by Ken M. Penner »

billmorgan wrote: November 11th, 2024, 5:40 am hi everyone, i just want to ask how to learn vocabulary. because i have tried many ways but it doesn't work. now i am very tired with this.
I wrote my own Flashcard memorization software. I learned vocabulary for Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, Latin, French, and German with it, back in the early 2000's, at an average rate of a word per minute. It still runs on Windows 11, if anyone's interested, at https://people.stfx.ca/kpenner/flash/
Ken M. Penner
Professor and Chair of Religious Studies, St. Francis Xavier University
Editor, Digital Biblical Studies
General Editor, Lexham English Septuagint
Co-Editor, Online Critical Pseudepigrapha pseudepigrapha.org
Brian Gould
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Re: Where do beginners go these days?

Post by Brian Gould »

billmorgan, try this. I haven’t worked very hard at it, not nearly as hard as I ought to, but even so it has borne fruit. Somebody worked out that the 311 commonest words in the NT, each of them occurring 50 times or more, add up to more than 110,000 occurrences overall. That is very nearly 80 percent of the total NT word count, usually stated as 138,020. This website gives the list in two forms, in alphabetical order and ranked by frequency.

https://bibleandtech.blogspot.com/2014/ ... lists.html

[Edit]

Sorry, that link doesn't seem to be working. Try this one:

Greek_New_Testament_Vocabulary.50plus.alphabeta
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