I do not know how other students work and learn, but for me: I'm a more beginning, maybe little advanced (first studied Dobson, now half on in Mounce, can read some parts of John's gospel and letters fluently). Besides the grammers for studying (Mounce going through, and after that I want to study Rollinson), when I read/study some text of the New Testament: I have a lot of other resources when I'am stuck. Besides a range of interesting websites I bought two volumes of the EGGNT series. Most problems are solved after reading those resources.Jonathan Robie wrote: ↑November 2nd, 2024, 3:47 pm B-Greek once had many more beginning and intermediate Greek readers who were reading the New Testament, got confused by a phrase, and asked questions about it. Later, other forums popped up that did the the same.
These days, I see a lot less traffic on any of these sites. Do beginning and intermediate students have better access to the resources they need? Are they finding people to answer their questions reliably in other places? Are there simply fewer beginning and intermediate Greek students?
Does anyone here have a good read on what is happening?
Where do beginners go these days?
Re: Where do beginners go these days?
Andries | Ἀνδρέας
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Re: Where do beginners go these days?
I find that when searching for something unusual, Chat GPT (and Geminii) often give me hallucinations:
Examples 2, 3, 4, & 5 contain no dative article at all.Me:
Show me examples in Biblical greek of the dative article when it implies nearnees or proximity.
Chat GPT response:
In Biblical Greek (Koine Greek), the dative case is often used to express proximity or nearness, particularly in combination with certain prepositions. Below are examples from the New Testament where the dative article implies nearness or proximity:
Example 1: Near a Place
ἐν τῷ οἴκῳ
en tôi oíkōi
"In the house."
Reference: Matthew 9:10 — Καὶ ἐγένετο αὐτοῦ ἀνακειμένου ἐν τῷ οἴκῳ... ("And as he reclined in the house...")
The dative article τῷ indicates location, emphasizing nearness within the house.
Example 2: Near a Person
πρὸς τῷ τάφῳ
pròs tôi táphōi
"Near the tomb."
Reference: John 11:38 — Ἦν δὲ σπήλαιον, καὶ λίθος ἐπέκειτο ἐπ’ αὐτῷ. ("Now it was a cave, and a stone lay near it.")
The dative article τῷ here suggests proximity to the tomb.
Example 3: Beside a Physical Object
παρὰ τῇ θαλάσσῃ
parà têi thalássēi
"Beside the sea."
Reference: Matthew 13:1 — Καὶ ἐξελθὼν ὁ Ἰησοῦς ἀπὸ τῆς οἰκίας ἐκάθητο παρὰ τῇ θαλάσσῃ. ("And Jesus went out of the house and sat by the sea.")
The dative article τῇ indicates physical nearness to the sea.
Example 4: At a Place
ἐπὶ τῷ ὄρει
epì tôi órei
"On the mountain."
Reference: Matthew 5:1 — Ἰδὼν δὲ τοὺς ὄχλους ἀνέβη εἰς τὸ ὄρος· καὶ καθίσαντος αὐτοῦ προσῆλθαν αὐτῷ οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ. ("Seeing the crowds, he went up on the mountain.")
The dative article τῷ points to location and proximity to the mountain.
Example 5: In the Presence of Someone
ἐνώπιον τῷ Θεῷ
enṓpion tôi Theōi
"In the presence of God."
Reference: Luke 1:19 — Ἐγώ εἰμι Γαβριὴλ ὁ παρεστηκὼς ἐνώπιον τοῦ Θεοῦ... ("I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God.")
The dative article τῷ conveys nearness in a relational or positional sense.
Example 6: Near an Individual
πλησίον τῷ σταυρῷ
plēsíon tôi staurôi
"Near the cross."
Reference: John 19:25 — Εἱστήκεισαν δὲ πλησίον τοῦ σταυροῦ τοῦ Ἰησοῦ ἡ μήτηρ αὐτοῦ... ("Now near the cross of Jesus stood his mother...")
The dative article τῷ is used with πλησίον to indicate nearness.
Observations:
Prepositions like ἐν, παρά, πρὸς, ἐπί, and πλησίον are frequently combined with the dative article to emphasize nearness.
Even without a preposition, verbs of sitting, standing, or being can imply proximity when used with the dative.
The dative case is contextually rich and can convey both physical and metaphorical nearness.
Δαβιδ Wilens
δοῦλος Θεοῦ
Ταϊβάν
δοῦλος Θεοῦ
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Re: Where do beginners go these days?
living_manna wrote:
Are you actually studying Greek yourself?
On the contrary, each of these does contain a dative article (τῇ, τῷ). The first is fem. dat. sg.; the second is masc. dat. sg.Examples 2, 3, 4, & 5 contain no dative article at all.
Are you actually studying Greek yourself?
Dewayne Dulaney
Δεβένιος Δουλένιος
Blog: https://letancientvoicesspeak.wordpress.com/
"Ὁδοὶ δύο εἰσί, μία τῆς ζωῆς καὶ μία τοῦ θανάτου."--Διδαχή Α, α'
Δεβένιος Δουλένιος
Blog: https://letancientvoicesspeak.wordpress.com/
"Ὁδοὶ δύο εἰσί, μία τῆς ζωῆς καὶ μία τοῦ θανάτου."--Διδαχή Α, α'
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Re: Where do beginners go these days?
One book which is an excellent resource for the New Testament is Zerwick and Grosvenor, "Grammatical Analysis of the Greek New Testament"Andries wrote: ↑November 27th, 2024, 10:25 amI do not know how other students work and learn, but for me: I'm a more beginning, maybe little advanced (first studied Dobson, now half on in Mounce, can read some parts of John's gospel and letters fluently). Besides the grammers for studying (Mounce going through, and after that I want to study Rollinson), when I read/study some text of the New Testament: I have a lot of other resources when I'am stuck. Besides a range of interesting websites I bought two volumes of the EGGNT series. Most problems are solved after reading those resources.Jonathan Robie wrote: ↑November 2nd, 2024, 3:47 pm B-Greek once had many more beginning and intermediate Greek readers who were reading the New Testament, got confused by a phrase, and asked questions about it. Later, other forums popped up that did the the same.
These days, I see a lot less traffic on any of these sites. Do beginning and intermediate students have better access to the resources they need? Are they finding people to answer their questions reliably in other places? Are there simply fewer beginning and intermediate Greek students?
Does anyone here have a good read on what is happening?
If you've gone through Mounce, don't bother going through my textbook (though you're welcome to use it for practice sentences etc), start reading the GNT itself - after all, that is the purpose of learning NT Greek

Another good resource is the Daily Dose of Greek (also Hebrew, Latin, Aramaic) - free videos, they'll send you an email every day with a link to a 2-minute video where they go through a NT book verse by verse, read it in Greek, translate it, then do a brief analysis of some part of the grammar associated with that verse. https://dailydoseofgreek.com/
For a more extensive grammar (not really a textbook, more of a reference book) try Herbert Weir Smyth, "A Greek Grammar for Colleges" - it's also available on the Perseus site with a lot of other interesting stuff https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/
Start reading. Read aloud. Read through a book in sequence. Read just a verse or a few verses each day. Keep a daily notebook, with new words etc, and whatever notes you feel like making about the text. Let the text speak to you.
Happy studies
Shirley Rollinson
Re: Where do beginners go these days?
Thanks Shirley, for the helpful tips and other resources. The Daily Dose of Greek is very good, I'am following dr Plummer now for several months and I've learned a lot from his daily lessons.Shirley Rollinson wrote: ↑December 11th, 2024, 9:18 pm One book which is an excellent resource for the New Testament is Zerwick and Grosvenor, "Grammatical Analysis of the Greek New Testament"
If you've gone through Mounce, don't bother going through my textbook (though you're welcome to use it for practice sentences etc), start reading the GNT itself - after all, that is the purpose of learning NT GreekThen use Zerwick and the grammars to help with any bits you can't work out for yourself.
Another good resource is the Daily Dose of Greek (also Hebrew, Latin, Aramaic) - free videos, they'll send you an email every day with a link to a 2-minute video where they go through a NT book verse by verse, read it in Greek, translate it, then do a brief analysis of some part of the grammar associated with that verse. https://dailydoseofgreek.com/
For a more extensive grammar (not really a textbook, more of a reference book) try Herbert Weir Smyth, "A Greek Grammar for Colleges" - it's also available on the Perseus site with a lot of other interesting stuff https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/
Start reading. Read aloud. Read through a book in sequence. Read just a verse or a few verses each day. Keep a daily notebook, with new words etc, and whatever notes you feel like making about the text. Let the text speak to you.
Happy studies
Shirley Rollinson
Andries | Ἀνδρέας