Does anyone remember...

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Barry Hofstetter
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Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Does anyone remember...

Post by Barry Hofstetter » July 5th, 2016, 8:23 pm

A long time ago, on a b-greek listserve far away, I suggested that Chrysostom had accented πρωτότοκος as πρωτοτόκος, suggesting an active meaning, "first creator." In a somewhat annoying fashion, Carl Conrad, of all people, challenged me for a reference. I tracked it down, and it turned out not to be Chrysostom, but someone else from late antiquity. Now, I can remember all those details, but I can't remember who it was, and I have not been able to reduplicate the research I did. Can anyone remember or help me locate that post?
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
ἐγὼ δὲ διδάσκω τε καὶ γράφω ἵνα τὰ ἀξιώτερα μανθάνω

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Does anyone remember...

Post by Jonathan Robie » July 6th, 2016, 4:50 pm

I cannot find it, Barry.

I tried variations on this and came up dry:

https://www.google.com/search?q=Chrysos ... org/bgreek

I did find this in Gill:
the firstborn of every creature; not the first of the creation, or the first creature God made; for all things in Colossians 1:16 are said to be created by him, and therefore he himself can never be a creature; nor is he the first in the new creation, for the apostle in the context is speaking of the old creation, and not the new: but the sense either is, that he was begotten of the Father in a manner inconceivable and inexpressible by men, before any creatures were in being; or that he is the "first Parent", or bringer forth of every creature into being, as the word will bear to be rendered, if instead of we read which is no more than changing the place of the accent, and may be very easily ventured upon, as is done by an ancient writer (g), who observes, that the word is used in this sense by Homer, and is the same as "first Parent", and "first Creator"; and the rather this may be done, seeing the accents were all added since the apostle's days, and especially seeing it makes his reasoning, in the following verses, appear with much more beauty, strength, and force: he is the first Parent of every creature, "for by him were all things created", &c. Colossians 1:16, or it may be understood of Christ, as the King, Lord, and Governor of all creatures; being God's firstborn, he is heir of all things, the right of government belongs to him; he is higher than the kings of the earth, or the angels in heaven, the highest rank of creatures, being the Creator and upholder of all, as the following words show; so the Jews make the word "firstborn" to be synonymous with the word "king", and explain it by , "a great one", and "a prince" (h); see Psalm 89:27.
And this in Barnes:
(This clause has been variously explained. The most commonly received, and, as we think, best supported opinion, is that which renders πρωτοτοκος πασης κτισεως prōtotokos pasēs ktiseōs; "begotten before all creation." This most natural and obvious sense would have been more readily admitted, had it not been supposed hostile to certain views on the sonship of Christ. Some explain πρωτότοκος prōtotokos actively, and render "first begetter or producer of all things," which gives, at all events, a sense consistent with truth and with the context, which immediately assigns as the reason of Christ being styled πρωτότοκος prōtotokos, the clause beginning ὁτι εν αυτω εκτισθη hoti en autō ektisthē, "For by him were all things created." Others, with the author explain the word figuratively, of pre-eminence or lordship. To this view however, there are serious objections.

It seems not supported by sufficient evidence. No argument can be drawn from Colossians 1:18 until it is proved that "firstborn from the dead," does not mean the first that was raised to die no more, which Doddridge affirms to be "the easiest, surest, most natural sense, in which the best commentators are agreed." Nor is the argument from Romans 8:29 satisfactory. "Πρωτότοκος Prōtotokos," says Bloomfield, at the close of an admirable note on this verse, "is not well taken by Whitby and others, in a figurative sense, to denote 'Lord of all things, since the word is never so used, except in reference to primogeniture. And although, in Romans 8:29, we have τον ρωτοτοκος εν πολλοις αδελφοις ton prōtotokos en pollois adelphois, yet there his followers are represented not as his creatures, but as his brethren. On which, and other accounts, the interpretation, according to which we have here a strong testimony to the eternal filiation of our Saviour is greatly preferable; and it is clear that Colossians 1:15, Colossians 1:18 are illustrative of the nature, as Colossians 1:16-17 are an evidence of the pre-existence and divinity of Christ.")
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Barry Hofstetter
Posts: 1004
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: Does anyone remember...

Post by Barry Hofstetter » July 6th, 2016, 5:16 pm

Thanks for your effort -- I found these too. What I want is the specific name of the ancient author who makes that claim.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
ἐγὼ δὲ διδάσκω τε καὶ γράφω ἵνα τὰ ἀξιώτερα μανθάνω

Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Does anyone remember...

Post by Stephen Hughes » July 7th, 2016, 12:04 am

Isidiore of Pelusium (OT Sin מִדְבַּר סִין), Ascetic, Pre-Calcedonian, Alexandrian, d. c. 450 (l. 3. Ep. 31), PG 78.

Sources Chretiennes - Pierre ÉVIEUX

Modern Greek dictionary
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Does anyone remember...

Post by Stephen Hughes » July 7th, 2016, 1:10 pm

PG 78, col.196,197.

Just skimming over the first few of those letters (notes) that that guy wrote, it might be that Gill's comments are a bit of a conflation. Ep. 21 mentions Homer, θεοποιία and θεογονία, Ep. 23 talks about the different accentuations of πρωτότόκος. They are in letters to different people.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

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