Shalom

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Re: Shalom

Postby Catherine Brown » February 20th, 2014, 7:49 am

Thanks guys,

I did start off with strongs and then I came to see how unreliable it is. Its not that i am set out to prove people wrong. I see contradictions in the translations, I cant take them, i dont understand how anyone can, I am no hypocrite. I am more of a logical thinker who likes to maintain an open thought process.

You have to bear in mind though, that although I am a beginner, I have asked 2 greek scholars so far. Both these guys had different opinions, on here I have yet another opinion.

I can ask about hebrew too, one scholar will tell me one thing and the other will say something different. No one seems to be much in agreement. I came to the conclusion that it is better to ask on a forum dedicated to biblical greek where i can get more of a 'community' opinion where you will bounce off each other....and I learn things from that, which i am grateful for.

That being said, I don't put my full trust in majority opinions. There are too many 'majority' opinions on this earth for them all to be correct. Just looking at the different religions/faiths coming from the same book, shows this clearly, they can't all be right. So i can't do the 'the whole world believes this so it must be correct' thing :)
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Agreements and understandings.

Postby Stephen Hughes » February 20th, 2014, 9:12 am

There is a certain congruity between your asking a group of people a question, and your then expecting a single answer. Even when some members of this forum agree with each other, it is often that each has arrived at a point of agreement from a very different starting point and process.

Even diametrically opposite view points are often very similar, because they are probably expressed using the same underlying assumptions upon which to base and express opinions. As much as you have mastered the Greek language through learning and experience, and acquired the science of the Greek language, you will be able to understand the viewpoints of others and how they are expressed.

Are you undertaking any courses in Greek? Or do you have any other strategies and learning goals to achieve a workable level of Greek with in a reasonable length of time?
Stephen Hughes
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Using Strongs numbering system as a crutch

Postby Stephen Hughes » February 20th, 2014, 10:18 pm

Catherine Brown wrote:I did start off with strongs and then I came to see how unreliable it is.

Strong's numbering system has the advantage of not being in Greek, which can serve as a temporary crutch for some people, while they get used to the written/printed form of the alphabet, the order of the alphabet, or until you can get used to memorising more than a syllable from the time you get from the page you are reading to the page you are looking things up on. The dictionary meanings that were printed with Strong's perhaps not very "in depth".

There are a number of ways that you can go about vocabulary learning, and all are valuable in some way or another. Memorising the Strong's numbers for Greek words is not so useful (although, that is what I tend to do myself for Hebrew). You can probably expect to learn (and retain) between 10 and 20 new words per week if you apply yourself.
Stephen Hughes
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself."
(Attributed to Albert Einstein)
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Re: Using Strongs numbering system as a crutch

Postby Catherine Brown » February 21st, 2014, 10:48 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Catherine Brown wrote:I did start off with strongs and then I came to see how unreliable it is.

Strong's numbering system has the advantage of not being in Greek, which can serve as a temporary crutch for some people, while they get used to the written/printed form of the alphabet, the order of the alphabet, or until you can get used to memorising more than a syllable from the time you get from the page you are reading to the page you are looking things up on. The dictionary meanings that were printed with Strong's perhaps not very "in depth".

There are a number of ways that you can go about vocabulary learning, and all are valuable in some way or another. Memorising the Strong's numbers for Greek words is not so useful (although, that is what I tend to do myself for Hebrew). You can probably expect to learn (and retain) between 10 and 20 new words per week if you apply yourself.


I have learned a little of the alphabet, how the letters appear in uncial and miniscule forms and i have learned the meanings of some words and a little of the grammar, the conjuctions that appear most often seem to have stuck in my head also.

Thanks for that.

I wouldn't suggest you use strongs for the hebrew though, it gives you several meanings for one word and they aren't always correct, so its misleading :)
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Re: Using Strongs numbering system as a crutch

Postby Barry Hofstetter » February 21st, 2014, 1:26 pm

Catherine Brown wrote:
I have learned a little of the alphabet, how the letters appear in uncial and miniscule forms and i have learned the meanings of some words and a little of the grammar, the conjuctions that appear most often seem to have stuck in my head also.

Thanks for that.

I wouldn't suggest you use strongs for the hebrew though, it gives you several meanings for one word and they aren't always correct, so its misleading :)


There is nothing wrong with listing several meanings (or better, usages) for the word as long as they are accurate. Words have what is known as a semantic range, or range of meaning:

The captain can run the ship with a run in her stocking while the crew members run a race on the run on deck ten.


Now what does the word run mean? :shock:

I would suggest using Strong's for nothing. There are far better original language resources out there.
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Re: Using Strongs numbering system as a crutch

Postby Stephen Hughes » February 21st, 2014, 7:53 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:Now what does the word run mean? :shock:

I would suggest using Strong's for nothing. There are far better original language resources out there.

"Run" means that some water was coming from her nose because of the breeze. :twisted:

Catherine, although I'm voluble in my posting, my views on resources are definitely the minority view. I read from the latest (most) edited Byzantine text, while most participants on B-Greek are searching for the earliest (least) edited autograph text. The dictionary I regularly use and suggest that others use is the smallest, simplest possible dictionary - Barclay Newmann's or a similar one, while most participants use and suggest using the most comprehensive lexica possible such as BADG or LSJ. I think that people should put their grammars away after the beginner's or lower intermediate level of lanuage learning and wrestle with the language to internalise it and master it, while most participants like to reference Smyth's or BDF. I think that interlinears are a good stepping stone to Greek, and a valid way of "softening" the Greek for intermediate level students when they come to a difficult passage, while many participants feel they are counter-productive and a few participant feel they turn the users mind to ZOMBIES. I think Strong's numbering system provides a way to reference and find words while beginners are strugglig with the form and order of the alphabet, while I don't remember hearing a positive comment about them on the forum yet.
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Re: Shalom

Postby Barry Hofstetter » February 21st, 2014, 10:15 pm

Interlinears are the spawn of Satan, flesh eating bacteria, and yes, brain eating zombies. The reason Stephen recommends them is because his brains have been eaten! Of course, this happens to most people who stray from Greek and study (shudder) Egyptology. Remember all the warnings in the Bible about return to Egypt?

:lol: :mrgreen: :shock:
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The first step of the mummification process

Postby Stephen Hughes » February 22nd, 2014, 2:50 am

Barry Hofstetter wrote:Interlinears are the spawn of Satan, flesh eating bacteria, and yes, brain eating zombies. The reason Stephen recommends them is because his brains have been eaten! Of course, this happens to most people who stray from Greek and study (shudder) Egyptology. Remember all the warnings in the Bible about return to Egypt?

:lol: :mrgreen: :shock:

The first step of the mummification process that was carried out directly after death was that the brain was removed through nose. It was taken out and thrown away because it caused the flesh to break down and decay.

Conversely the other vital (useful) organs that the person being preserved would need to function in the afterlife - heart, kidneys etc - were taken out and put into the canopic jars at a later stage of the mummification process to preserve them.

[For those who don't know, the word "mummy" (in this sense) is a borrowing from the Arabic مومياء (mūmiya) meaning "embalmed body", "mummy".]
Stephen Hughes
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself."
(Attributed to Albert Einstein)
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Re: Shalom

Postby Catherine Brown » February 22nd, 2014, 7:34 am

Barry Hofstetter wrote:Interlinears are the spawn of Satan, flesh eating bacteria, and yes, brain eating zombies. The reason Stephen recommends them is because his brains have been eaten! Of course, this happens to most people who stray from Greek and study (shudder) Egyptology. Remember all the warnings in the Bible about return to Egypt?

:lol: :mrgreen: :shock:


Lol...in a sense Barry, I do agree with Stephen. Strongs was the first thing i came across but it was whilst looking at hebrew, I was using e-sword. I did find it handy because even though it isn't perfect, it showed me enough for me to decide that looking at the mss would be the best idea. I learned some very basic words with it.

Strongs hebrew gives you meanings for words which are incorrect. The meanings it gives require different hebrew words. Not that it lists several meanings of one word, which i was aware of. Its that sometimes the meanings it gives are of another hebrew word rather than what it tells you.

I fell for it :)

Yes though, I do agree, interlinears are the spawn of the adversary. How else is it to deceive you :shock:
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Re: The first step of the mummification process

Postby Catherine Brown » February 22nd, 2014, 8:06 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Barry Hofstetter wrote:Interlinears are the spawn of Satan, flesh eating bacteria, and yes, brain eating zombies. The reason Stephen recommends them is because his brains have been eaten! Of course, this happens to most people who stray from Greek and study (shudder) Egyptology. Remember all the warnings in the Bible about return to Egypt?

:lol: :mrgreen: :shock:

The first step of the mummification process that was carried out directly after death was that the brain was removed through nose. It was taken out and thrown away because it caused the flesh to break down and decay.

Conversely the other vital (useful) organs that the person being preserved would need to function in the afterlife - heart, kidneys etc - were taken out and put into the canopic jars at a later stage of the mummification process to preserve them.

[For those who don't know, the word "mummy" (in this sense) is a borrowing from the Arabic مومياء (mūmiya) meaning "embalmed body", "mummy".]


I knew that hehe, I found egyptian mummies fascinating when i was younger. I had a box set of that egyptologist guy, Zahi Hawass and some books on Egypt and Tutankhamun. I went to an exhibition in Edinburgh, it was Peruvian though, but I did see a mummy, he was in the lotus position and still had his peepee bit intact hehe. He looked a bit like dried meat, like someone had stuck him in a dehydrating machine. They, not long ago, unearthed an ancient pictish monastery up north of Scotland which was built using the same architecture as the Egyptians pyramids. The 'divine proportion' i believe.

I spend more time looking at romans now and their paganism to see how the mindset has effected my bible :)
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