Hello

Please introduce yourself here, if you haven't already.
Carly Blackwell
Posts: 1
Joined: December 1st, 2014, 1:24 pm

Hello

Post by Carly Blackwell »

Hi, my name is Carly, and I am studying the Bible. I use the scripture4all website when I feel unsure about Hebrew or Greek translations (mostly Greek, as I am not really reading the Old Testament, less listening to it on audio every so often, in which case I am finishing up Judges).

I am hoping that this forum can be helpful in learning the Bible, as I am shocked at how the English translations can be so different from the original Greek.

Peace.

Carly
Jonathan Robie
Posts: 4166
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:34 pm
Location: Durham, NC
Contact:

Re: Hello

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Hi Carly,

Welcome to B-Greek!

If you stick around here for very long, you'll quickly learn that almost nobody here thinks using an interlinear like that is a good way of knowing what the original languages say. In fact, if you don't know the language any good translation is usually a better way of understanding the original unless you actually learn the languages. If you're shocked by the differences between translations and the interlinear, be suspicious of the interlinear first.

I'm guessing you are a beginner. Let me suggest that (1) you post in the Beginner's Forum, and (2) you focus on questions that show you are working on learning the language, not just using an interlinear. Without the grammar, you really can't understand the original languages, and an interlinear doesn't give you the first clue about the grammar.

Again, welcome to B-Greek!

Jonathan
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Barry Hofstetter
Posts: 2159
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: Hello

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

Allow me to be forthright: Interlinears are, metaphorically speaking, the linguistic spawn of Satan. If you want a a fake knowledge of Greek, they are fine. I will also emphasize that the mainline translations are generally accurate and faithful to the Greek. They are not perfect, but the kind of differences you are seeing are assuredly a problem with the interlinear.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Jonathan Robie
Posts: 4166
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:34 pm
Location: Durham, NC
Contact:

Re: Hello

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Barry Hofstetter wrote:Allow me to be forthright: Interlinears are, metaphorically speaking, the linguistic spawn of Satan. If you want a a fake knowledge of Greek, they are fine. I will also emphasize that the mainline translations are generally accurate and faithful to the Greek. They are not perfect, but the kind of differences you are seeing are assuredly a problem with the interlinear.
We all know what happens to people who use interlinears ...
Graham wrote:The wretched transgressor sinks into a miserable fatuity and eventually becomes a confirmed and degraded idiot who’s deeply sunken and vacant glossy eye, and livid shriveled countenance, and ulcerous, toothless gums and fetid breath, and emaciated, and dwarfish, and crooked body, and almost hairless head, denote a premature old age, a blighted body and a ruined soul.
(Carly: I hope it's obvious that Barry and I are trying to use humor, and we do want you to feel welcome here. But ... could you please leave the interlinear at the door?)
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Hello

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Jonathan Robie wrote:[A]lmost nobody here thinks using an interlinear ... is ... good
Since I've been mentioned indirectly as an adverb, let me also welcome you to the forum.
Jonathan Robie wrote:If you're shocked by the differences between translations and the interlinear, be suspicious of the interlinear first.
Also, if are ever sure that your own understanding of Greek is better than a scholarly translation committee, and you have no other reason to be sure except that you are sure, then being suspicious of your certainty is probably also warranted.

Translations are all in some way and through some steps (e.g. adjusting word order, using idiomatically appropriate tenses, etc.) derived from the Greek text, while an interlinear doesn't follow that full process (leaving the English as "something like encoded Greek").

As with training wheels on a bike, the long-term goal is to get beyond the need to use them. There are various strategies to achieve that. Working through abstract grammar is one of them.

Some people hold to the idea that students should have exposure to a language for half a year or more, before attempting formal study of it, and then their study will go much more smoothly. It is possible that an interlinear could be thought of as an opportunity for that to happen. It sounds like you've been at it for a while, so perhaps now is a good time to start looking at the language itself.

In a sense an interlinear is like an extended bilingual phrasebook, and as you can well imagine from any travel phrasebooks you may have encountered that type of arrangement has limitations for learning to deal with the language in terms of it being a language that exists in its own right beyond the text of the phrasebook. For many years I had a facsimile copy of Tonnies Fonne's Russian-German Phrasebook (Pskov, 1607), which I used to read for amusement, and while interesting in itself, it never let me understand that dialect of Russian, but was a good way to relax. As for the tourist who has a need to get around in the second language environment while they are trying their best to go to classes and learn the language, so the interlinear lets those who have a need to deal with the Greek text before their own ability is up to the task. If someone was still using the phrasebook after years and years in a foreign country that would raise eyebrows.

Whatever the steps that you are taking along your individual path to mastery of the Greek, the total reliance on the interlinear, (and probably later on the formal grammar) that you are now displaying, is something that you need to work hard to overcome. Master the things that come easiest to you first - pronunciation, parsing or sentence structures - the aim being to make each one of those interlined parts of the interlinear redundant as your learning progresses. Asking questions like, "What do I need to know, so that I don't need this interlined information?", or "What would I need to know to be able to create this interlined information myself?", will lead you on the right path, in most cases.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
cwconrad
Posts: 2112
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:52 pm
Location: Burnsville, NC 28714
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Re: Hello

Post by cwconrad »

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Jonathan Robie wrote:[A]lmost nobody here thinks using an interlinear ... is ... good
Since I've been mentioned indirectly as an adverb,.. .
I must protest against this servile self-deprecation. Nobody -- that's unqualified! -- οὔ τις (not the Homeric Οὔτις) thinks that you are either "nobody" or that you are an adverb. An adverb, humph!!
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Hello

Post by Stephen Hughes »

cwconrad wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:
Jonathan Robie wrote:[A]lmost nobody here thinks using an interlinear ... is ... good
Since I've been mentioned indirectly as an adverb,.. .
I must protest against this servile self-deprecation. Nobody -- that's unqualified! -- οὔ τις (not the Homeric Οὔτις) thinks that you are either "nobody" or that you are an adverb. An adverb, humph!!
Touché. :ugeek:

Perhaps, "I am one of those who make the use of the adverb "almost" necessary here.", or "I put the almost into almost nobody.", "I am one of those who has been referred to by the use of the adverb "almost"" would have conveyed the sense I wanted a bit better.

How would the other giants have reacted to Polyphemus if he had cried out that Οὔτις πλὴν τινός ("Nobody except somebody") had blinded him?

Actually, I think Greek would render this in the positive in the first half and negative in the second. The language seems to handle sections of groups in the positive σχεδὸν πάντες οἱ κοινωνοί ("Almost all the participants"), which would be more than οἱ πλείονες (or more formally πλείους ("the majority"), but not as total as a simple πάντες οἱ κοινωνοί ("All the participants"), or a construction with prepositions with the accusative. If both for and against viewpoints were well represented, I guess that a simple οἱ μὲν ... ("some"), οἱ δὲ ... ("others") would do. Anyway, talking about how to translate Jonathan into Greek is not why most people are here.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
cwconrad
Posts: 2112
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:52 pm
Location: Burnsville, NC 28714
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Re: Hello

Post by cwconrad »

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Jonathan Robie wrote:[A]lmost nobody here thinks using an interlinear ... is ... good
Since I've been mentioned indirectly as an adverb,.. .
cwconrad wrote:I must protest against this servile self-deprecation. Nobody -- that's unqualified! -- οὔ τις (not the Homeric Οὔτις) thinks that you are either "nobody" or that you are an adverb. An adverb, humph!![/quote
Stephen Hughes wrote:Touché. :ugeek:

Perhaps, "I am one of those who make the use of the adverb "almost" necessary here.", or "I put the almost into almost nobody.", "I am one of those who has been referred to by the use of the adverb "almost"" would have conveyed the sense I wanted a bit better.

How would the other giants have reacted to Polyphemus if he had cried out that Οὔτις πλὴν τινός ("Nobody except somebody") had blinded him?

Actually, I think Greek would render this in the positive in the first half and negative in the second. The language seems to handle sections of groups in the positive σχεδὸν πάντες οἱ κοινωνοί ("Almost all the participants"), which would be more than οἱ πλείονες (or more formally πλείους ("the majority"), but not as total as a simple πάντες οἱ κοινωνοί ("All the participants"), or a construction with prepositions with the accusative. If both for and against viewpoints were well represented, I guess that a simple οἱ μὲν ... ("some"), οἱ δὲ ... ("others") would do. Anyway, talking about how to translate Jonathan into Greek is not why most people are here.
I knew I shouldn't hadda started something like this. Polyphemus (or Poseidon) is likely to have his revenge. Poseidon doesn't take lightly harm done to his protégés. σχέδον ἢ σφόδρα -- οὐδὲν διαφέρει. Most likely this will serve as a deterrent to a guy who only wanted to say, "Hello". Join us, Carly, and learn what it is to joust and jest ῾Ελληνιστί.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
Shirley Rollinson
Posts: 415
Joined: June 4th, 2011, 6:19 pm
Location: New Mexico
Contact:

Re: Hello

Post by Shirley Rollinson »

Carly Blackwell wrote:Hi, my name is Carly, and I am studying the Bible. I use the scripture4all website when I feel unsure about Hebrew or Greek translations (mostly Greek, as I am not really reading the Old Testament, less listening to it on audio every so often, in which case I am finishing up Judges).

I am hoping that this forum can be helpful in learning the Bible, as I am shocked at how the English translations can be so different from the original Greek.

Peace.

Carly
Welcome Carly,
I'd suggest that you get a copy of the Greek New Testament that has footnotes showing the "variant readings" - sections of text which differ from one manuscript to another. The notes about "The Text" and "The Textual Apparatus" will help you to see what are some of the causes for variations in the translations.
Also, remember that in going from one language to another there are often several ways of expressing the same basic idea.
Translators usually have to choose on a spectrum between "wooden literal" (so exact that it is not good English - as for example the Greek use of the Present Tense for some historical accounts) and a "dynamic equivalent" (capturing the sense and feeling of the text, but not using the exact "dictionary translation" of each word). "Wooden literal" can be very difficult to read and understand (the KJV is close to that end of the spectrum - and even that has to add English words to make for smooth reading. If you have a KJV, it will probably show the added words in italics). The Greek can often miss out parts of the verb "to be", and can read a bit like newspaper-headlines, and Greek uses participles and infinitives in ways which are foreign to English.
Also, some of the English Bibles are really "paraphrases" - they make for easy reading but are not an "exact" translation.
If you want to understand what's going on between the Greek text and the various English translations, I'd suggest you get a Greek textbook and start to work through it - just a page-or-so a day will help.
If you'd like to try one for free, you're welcome to try the Online Greek Textbook,
at http://www.drshirley.org/greek/textbook02/index.html
Welcome to B-Greek, and keep on reading your Bible :-)
Shirley Rollinson
Stirling Bartholomew
Posts: 1141
Joined: August 9th, 2012, 4:19 pm

Re: Hello

Post by Stirling Bartholomew »

Jonathan Robie wrote:Hi Carly,

Welcome to B-Greek!

almost nobody here thinks using an interlinear like that is a good way of knowing what the original languages say.
Really, I know some guys at Tyndale House Cambridge who are building the mother-of-all-interlinear-bibles https://www.stepbible.org. The STEP bible is absolutely free of charge and it is as far as I know the most flexible configuration of ancient and modern bible texts online.
Last edited by Stirling Bartholomew on December 2nd, 2014, 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
C. Stirling Bartholomew
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