Hi from New Zealand

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Paul Sadler
Posts: 2
Joined: April 17th, 2015, 6:28 pm

Hi from New Zealand

Post by Paul Sadler »

Hi,

I am 43, have an academic background (masters degree in classical music) and currently live in a small town in New Zealand. I taught myself Biblical Greek 10 years ago, finished Bill Mounce's “Basics of Biblical Greek”, memorised about 1000 Greek words from NT and read parts of the Greek NT... but... did not keep it up.

I am seriously considering reviewing my knowledge and possibly going deeper into Biblical Greek and the problem I am having at the moment is not 'how' to learn but 'why'.

This statement by Bill Mounce was an inspiration for me then:

“I believe that learning Greek is nothing more than a natural extension of our loving relationship with Jesus Christ. Although many translations are good, they are one step further removed from what Jesus said. Ultimately we want to know him and his massage as well as possible. A knowledge of the Greek language is essential to achieve this goal.”

I am questioning this statement's validity now and if I could somehow restore my believe in it, that would be good enough to resume my personal studies. I can probably do about 2 hours of studying every day on my own and if I start now... well...in 10 years who knows where I will be!? Even if I learn Greek well, I don't have a particular vision what I am going to do with it, apart of course from reading the Bible in Greek. It just seems that something draws me to the way the first Christians expressed themselves. There is some charm and attraction to this language!

As a counter-argument I can say that even if modern translations are somewhat imperfect, what ultimately matters is where a believer’s heart is! And why shouldn’t we treat Koine Greek just as another medium for communication, just as Portuguese or Chinese ?!

I would love to hear your comments on this (especially from people who have been on that road for a while) and realise that asking about the value of learning Biblical Greek in a Biblical Greek Forum sounds a bit silly...(obviously if there are people who maintain a forum like this one, they believe that learning Greek is worth the time and energy!). If I can hear personal stories why learning Biblical Greek is important from people who have mastered it to some degree … this can probably motivate me.

Links to 'motivational' stories on this forum or anywhere on the internet will be appreciated.

But... it seems to me that the lack of personal communication with fellow learners was what let me down the first time. I did not consider it important and maybe that was a mistake...

Thank you in advance!
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Hi from New Zealand

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Paul Sadler wrote:I am questioning this statement's validity now and if I could somehow restore my belie[f] in it, that would be good enough to resume my personal studies.
Rather than expressing my feelings or even addressing Mounce's claim, let me ask a "What if ... ?" question that must needs be go outside the boundaries of this forum, since here what you are questioning is axiomatic.

For a moment of fancy, let's look at what if there was no writing - if we didn't have the New Testament written in Greek which you are wondering why we should bother reading it.

In an oral transmission model changing and moving from one language to another is not such a serious matter. A story, maxim or truth is changed quite naturally to the medium (more than just the language) that a particular group of speakers understands, and that community maintains it through various means. If it was the case that we didn't have writing, then having the stories and teaching of Jesus, the stories of the Apostles and especially Paul, and the reasoning and interpretation of the heritage that esp. Paul gives us, etc., related to us in our own English would seem nothing but natural. To see translation as a form of oral transmission, rather than a word-for-word from a text also makes a lot of sense to me. Having built the hypothetical house of cards, now let me introduce the question, If the Greek New Testament (and the whole swathe of contemporary literature) were introduced into a situation like that, what would it's benefit be?

I guess it would probably validate, more than it would question the things we would have received over the past 2,000 years. It would probably make some things clearer that had lost meaningful context being related to us in own day and age. Turns of phrase that seem "Biblical" to us might appear to be part of the everyday mode of communication that have in our actual case been preserved in (almost) word-for-word translations. A reader of Greek then would be able to know which ones were actually peculiarly Christian, and which were misconceived of as being so. Whether you yourself study the wider context, or you read the findings of those who have, it will be discussed at the level of the Greek text in either case.

Enough of the hypothetical.

A simple pair of questions:
  • To what extent does the usage of verbs in the New Testament reflect the full range of tenses and moods available in the Koine Greek? In other words, is the New Testament a piece of Koine Greek literature or a strange-sounding text - when viewed from the context it was written in?
  • To what extent do English versions reflect the entire English tense system? Is an English Bible good idiomatic English?
So far as I know, not completely all of the available verbal system is used in the New Testament, but what is used is for the most part idiomatic.

Another few questions:
  • Do different authour's Greek usages sound different from each other?
  • How different do they sound?
  • Are those differences or the extent of those differences appreciably demonstrated in translations?
(Yes, noticeably so. / They conform to different genres and are written by people from different backgrounds for people of varioous backgrounds. / Not markedly).
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Hi from New Zealand

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Paul Sadler wrote:I can probably do about 2 hours of studying every day on my own and if I start now... well...in 10 years who knows where I will be!?
For some thing in the learning process a big sit-down and slog session is appropriate but for other things snacking frequently throughout the day is a much more efficient way to internalise the language. Part of the sit-down time can be for "preparation for study time". Your 5 (or so) words for a given day can be prepared, and then rote-learnt one at a time as you are doing other things - each one takes about the same time as having a lolly rattling around inside your head. Spending your mental down time on simple non-intellectual things is effective if you later bring them together as a daily / weekly list.

Words with glosses, particular verbal forms and short phrases are all good for snacking out on.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Barry Hofstetter
Posts: 2159
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: Hi from New Zealand

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

Greetings, and welcome to the list. I can only say that even on the "human" level, with literature that finds its genius strictly in the inspiration of the author, the ability to read the text in the original language yields immeasurable benefits in terms of understanding it. It is far better to read Cicero or Homer in the language in which they habitually thought and expressed themselves than in any English translation. How much more the very words of the living God expressed through his designated representatives?
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Shirley Rollinson
Posts: 415
Joined: June 4th, 2011, 6:19 pm
Location: New Mexico
Contact:

Re: Hi from New Zealand

Post by Shirley Rollinson »

Paul Sadler wrote:Hi,

I am 43, have an academic background (masters degree in classical music) and currently live in a small town in New Zealand. I taught myself Biblical Greek 10 years ago, finished Bill Mounce's “Basics of Biblical Greek”, memorised about 1000 Greek words from NT and read parts of the Greek NT... but... did not keep it up.

I am seriously considering reviewing my knowledge and possibly going deeper into Biblical Greek and the problem I am having at the moment is not 'how' to learn but 'why'.

This statement by Bill Mounce was an inspiration for me then:

“I believe that learning Greek is nothing more than a natural extension of our loving relationship with Jesus Christ. Although many translations are good, they are one step further removed from what Jesus said. Ultimately we want to know him and his massage as well as possible. A knowledge of the Greek language is essential to achieve this goal.”

I am questioning this statement's validity now and if I could somehow restore my believe in it, that would be good enough to resume my personal studies. I can probably do about 2 hours of studying every day on my own and if I start now... well...in 10 years who knows where I will be!? Even if I learn Greek well, I don't have a particular vision what I am going to do with it, apart of course from reading the Bible in Greek. It just seems that something draws me to the way the first Christians expressed themselves. There is some charm and attraction to this language!

As a counter-argument I can say that even if modern translations are somewhat imperfect, what ultimately matters is where a believer’s heart is! And why shouldn’t we treat Koine Greek just as another medium for communication, just as Portuguese or Chinese ?!

I would love to hear your comments on this (especially from people who have been on that road for a while) and realise that asking about the value of learning Biblical Greek in a Biblical Greek Forum sounds a bit silly...(obviously if there are people who maintain a forum like this one, they believe that learning Greek is worth the time and energy!). If I can hear personal stories why learning Biblical Greek is important from people who have mastered it to some degree … this can probably motivate me.

Links to 'motivational' stories on this forum or anywhere on the internet will be appreciated.

But... it seems to me that the lack of personal communication with fellow learners was what let me down the first time. I did not consider it important and maybe that was a mistake...

Thank you in advance!
Hi Paul
Welcome to B-Greek.
Here's what I would recommend :
Do you do a daily Bible study in Enlgish? Make notes on what you read? Think about it through the day? Allow it to "speak to you"?
(I don't mean read a bunch of commentaries or devotionals, but read whole chunks of the text and then sit back and think about it.)
If not - that would be the place to start.
Then, when the habit of study of the English text is firm, add 5 minutes of reading the same passage in the Greek text (no grammar, no textbook - just the text). And read it aloud so that you hear the sound of it. Then think about it, and work at translating it. Write some notes on it. Grosvernor and Zerwick "Analysis of the Greek New Testament" is a help with translation. It will be slow going at first. Then, working with a textbook, start with the first chapters and look for examples of the grammar in the text you just read. Keep a notebook for remarks, vocabulary, grammar - anything you want to add about that text.
Don't get bogged down in grammar and learning vocabulary - read the Greek and let it get into your brain.
It can also be a help if you find a groups of pastors, seminarians, lay-folk who read Greek, and meet with them to read Greek regularly. If there isn't a local opportunity, there are several online Reading Groups.
For a "reading-based" textbook, you are welcome to try the Online Textbook at
http://www.drshirley.org/greek/textbook02/index.html

(When you study the OT, you could try adding Hebrew also :-)
Shirley Rollinson
Paul Sadler
Posts: 2
Joined: April 17th, 2015, 6:28 pm

Re: Hi from New Zealand

Post by Paul Sadler »

Stephen, Barry, Shirley,
Thank you very much for replying to my post! It is much appreciated!


Stephen,

If I have to summarise everything you have said, it all boils down to this:

Learning Koine Greek will put me in the right historical, cultural and linguistic environment that was about 2000 years ago in the time of Jesus. The Greek of the NT is basically the common language of the time and should be treated in this context. This linguistic context includes also (among other writings) the LXX, apostolic fathers, other early Christian literature, non Christian Jewish and Roman writers of the same period, etc. Many of those writings are in Koine Greek. Therefore, being competent in Koine Greek is vary valuable.

Greek grammar will clarify nuances in the text otherwise undetectable in modern translations. And learning Greek syntax is worth the time and effort to detect those subtleties. Thus we can understand better what Jesus said and did, and how Paul and the other apostles interpreted it.

In other words, my 2 hours a day that I can devote to study NT (whether one long session or several shorter ones as you suggested) are better spent studying Greek grammar, vocabulary and excerpts from the Greek NT, rather than, say, reading an English translation of the Bible for an hour and a commentary in English written by a scholar who knows Greek for the next hour. Or... at least, learning Greek should have a higher priority.

Would that be a fair description of your position?

Please correct me if necessary.
Thomas Dolhanty
Posts: 401
Joined: May 20th, 2014, 10:13 am
Location: west coast of Canada

Re: Hi from New Zealand

Post by Thomas Dolhanty »

Barry Hofstetter wrote:Greetings, and welcome to the list. I can only say that even on the "human" level, with literature that finds its genius strictly in the inspiration of the author, the ability to read the text in the original language yields immeasurable benefits in terms of understanding it. It is far better to read Cicero or Homer in the language in which they habitually thought and expressed themselves than in any English translation. How much more the very words of the living God expressed through his designated representatives?
Here is motivation. If this be found, look no further.

θαυμαστὰ τὰ μαρτύριά σου διὰ τοῦτο ἐξηρεύνησεν αὐτὰ ἡ ψυχή μου Psa. 119:129 (LXX 118:129)
γράφω μαθεῖν
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Hi from New Zealand

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Paul Sadler wrote:Greek grammar will clarify nuances in the text otherwise undetectable in modern translations. And learning Greek syntax is worth the time and effort to detect those subtleties. Thus we can understand better what Jesus said and did, and how Paul and the other apostles interpreted it.
The system we call "grammar" is sort of a middle-ground description of the language. It is vague enough to be generally applicable and in terms of the aspects of the language that it covers, it is definite enough to make meaningful distinctions.

Syntax is neither well understood nor well taught.

I work on the assumption that what we read of Paul and Luke was thought of and composed in Greek, other authours may have had different strategies, and the teaching of Jesus is given to us in translation and that we should pay attention to the message, not fixate on the words themselves. The language that the message has been expressed in is Koine Greek.
Paul Sadler wrote:Learning Koine Greek . . .
There is a lot to that statement.
Paul Sadler wrote:. . . will put me in the right historical, cultural and linguistic environment that was about 2000 years ago in the time of Jesus. The Greek of the NT is basically the common language of the time and should be treated in this context. This linguistic context includes also (among other writings) the LXX, apostolic fathers, other early Christian literature, non Christian Jewish and Roman writers of the same period, etc. Many of those writings are in Koine Greek. Therefore, being competent in Koine Greek is v[e]ry valuable.
That is really far more than a knowledge of the language would be able to provide for you. Ancient society and culture is a vast field.

The normal way that we come to a text, is already knowing the language. The text is situation within a context of the language. If you read a text to understand / learn the language, it is quite possible to end up in a circularity, and end up knowing the text, not the "language". I advocate gaining enough knowledge of the language before reading to be able to understand the text, when you come to read it. There are a number of ways to do that. Think of Greek in the same terms that you would think of any other language. A modern language teacher who advocated reading and re-reading a particular book - with great long explanations in English, as a means to mastering the language would soon be queuing up for handouts, I think.
Paul Sadler wrote:In other words, my 2 hours a day that I can devote to study NT (whether one long session or several shorter ones as you suggested) are better spent studying Greek grammar, vocabulary and excerpts from the Greek NT, rather than, say, reading an English translation of the Bible for an hour and a commentary in English written by a scholar who knows Greek for the next hour. Or... at least, learning Greek should have a higher priority.
In study time, there is preparation and then there is learning (internalisation / acquisition / understanding). Preparation generally takes about 80-90% of the time, and learning tends to come quite quickly. What you do with your time depends on your goals.

By way of example, in my own study now, I'm looking at three texts; Longus Daphnis and Chloe, Polybius Histories, and Aeschylus Prometheus Bound. I take about a page of the Prometheus Vinctus, rote learn unknown vocabulary with single word glosses, and rote learn 1 or 2 line quotes that appeal to me. I aim for 5-10 new words a day, and 1 small quote every 2 or 3 days. One or two of those words get looked at in depth - the last two were στίβη "rime", "hoar frost" and χαρτιογλωσσεῖν "say something to make somebody happy, but have no intention of actually doing it". The section that I'm trying to internalise is
Aesch. PV, 574-575 wrote: ὑπὸ δὲ κηρόπλαστος ὀτοβεῖ δόναξ
χέτας ὑπνοδόταν νόμον
, and I memorise those underlined alphas as etas in the rote learning of vocabulary.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
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