Introduction

Please introduce yourself here, if you haven't already.
Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Introduction

Post by Stephen Hughes »

When you confront the negatives of discouragement, disillusionment, apathy, hostility, boredom, etc., be sure to ask about them too. We, whom you see here with varying degrees of mastery and knowledge, know Greek because we have known ourselves in the crucible of Greek and faced our inadequacies, and while seeing easier paths to follow have remained undaunted. It is easier to do that in the company of stout-hearted souls than standing in such jepody alone.

In other words, feel free to ask any questions as they arise.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
John Wright
Posts: 15
Joined: December 13th, 2015, 10:12 pm

Re: Introduction

Post by John Wright »

I'm going to dare to speak again on this thread, assuming it's not too old...

I've made some progress and am about halfway through Shirley's online textbook, doing the exercises and working on all the vocab. If I make it through the whole book...what's reasonable next? Parse a whole book of the NT to keep myself honest, and follow up on every hole I find in my understanding of grammar and syntax? Something else?

I've taken a look at Funk online, and it looks way cool with its narrative explanations, but I have to admit I'd rather work with a physical book, so would that we worth investing in for someone at my future stage of having done this one textbook? Of course, I have plenty of work to do in my current textbook before this question takes on any practical meaning.

Regarding's Stephen's last post, I will say that I've kind of been hammering the grammar in in a way I haven't quite done before. I can handle it, but I'm starting to feel a little brain-stretched, especially now as we're getting more into the verb. I'm enjoying it a lot, and finding reading (sort of reading) the NT passages extremely rewarding, but I wonder if anyone has anything to say -- words of warning or encouragement -- about slamming Greek textbook grammar in and hoping the shock subsides later.

Thanks again.
Thomas Dolhanty
Posts: 401
Joined: May 20th, 2014, 10:13 am
Location: west coast of Canada

Re: Introduction

Post by Thomas Dolhanty »

John Wright wrote:I'm going to dare to speak again on this thread, assuming it's not too old...

I've made some progress and am about halfway through Shirley's online textbook, doing the exercises and working on all the vocab. If I make it through the whole book...what's reasonable next? Parse a whole book of the NT to keep myself honest, and follow up on every hole I find in my understanding of grammar and syntax? Something else?

I've taken a look at Funk online, and it looks way cool with its narrative explanations, but I have to admit I'd rather work with a physical book, so would that we worth investing in for someone at my future stage of having done this one textbook? Of course, I have plenty of work to do in my current textbook before this question takes on any practical meaning.

Regarding's Stephen's last post, I will say that I've kind of been hammering the grammar in in a way I haven't quite done before. I can handle it, but I'm starting to feel a little brain-stretched, especially now as we're getting more into the verb. I'm enjoying it a lot, and finding reading (sort of reading) the NT passages extremely rewarding, but I wonder if anyone has anything to say -- words of warning or encouragement -- about slamming Greek textbook grammar in and hoping the shock subsides later.

Thanks again.
Hi John. Congratulations on pushing forward with such determination. There comes a time for most of us when just doing grammar in the abstract day after day becomes difficult to sustain ("... but I'm starting to feel a little brain-stretched, especially now as we're getting more into the verb."). I have compared it to that unforgettable scene from Cool Hand Luke where Paul Newman bets his fellow inmates he can eat 50 boiled eggs. I thought of that scene often when doing the last chapters of the Ross Hebrew grammar book. Can I get one more egg down?

My advice is that as soon as you have a handle on nouns and indicative verbs you should move to Biblical text. I think that Mark is the best book to start with, but other books will work too. Mark's Greek is not too difficult, but more varied and more typical than John's. Most important, though, is a book that works for you at the start. You will need to be looking at participles and infinitives almost immediately, and you will need to keep going back to some accessible reference to review basic grammar. For the people I teach, Mounce works fine for the first while, and it is the book they know, so they know where to find everything. Soon they will add Wallace, Funk, BDAG, online resources, Decker, etc.

The idea is that you have to develop a 'relationship' with reliable and accessible references, so that you can find answers to your questions relatively easily, and you have to START LEARNING YOUR GRAMMAR FROM THE GREEK TEXT. That is the grammar that you will remember in the long run, and it is in the text that vocabulary takes on real colour. "Parse a whole book of the NT to keep myself honest ..." sounds rather stoic and brutal to me! I would suggest just reading, and not going too fast - but stopping to make sure you know what you are looking at. As they say, "It gains momentum as it goes!" It starts slowly, but if you are thorough and consistent, the progress increases exponentially. Daily work at a consistent pace is what pays off in the long haul.

Finally, I am a big believer in LISTENING to the Biblical text. Find a good narrator for the pronunciation system that you have selected, and listen to the text after you are familiar with the grammar. It is a powerful learning resource if used in the right way.
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John Wright
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Joined: December 13th, 2015, 10:12 pm

Re: Introduction

Post by John Wright »

Thank you for the reply, Thomas. This all sounds good. My NT has no dictionary in the back, however -- can you suggest a solid one that will be serve as a solid NT lexical reference for years?

I've already had some participles and infinitives in this textbook -- very fun stuff, and I feel like I have a dim idea of the good times to come in Greek syntax. I'll try the approach you described and plan to start with Mark in a bit.

I ordered a copy of Smyth after seeing it at the library (I know, maybe premature, what can I do). I guess I'd want to start with the first volume of Funk, if I get there.

I'm anxious about listening, but I believe you know what you're talking about, so I'll try to look into it...
Thomas Dolhanty
Posts: 401
Joined: May 20th, 2014, 10:13 am
Location: west coast of Canada

Re: Introduction

Post by Thomas Dolhanty »

Listening to the text read well - and reading the text aloud yourself - is an important part of learning Greek in my experience. When you get to the place where you can listen to a passage read and follow along pretty well without looking at the text, then you are beginning to relate to the text as a language. It is a bit different than just reading it, and gives you a different perspective.

A simple but quite nice hardcopy lexicon is the "Shorter Lexicon of the Greek New Testament" Second Edition Edition, by Frederick William Danker (Editor), F. Wilbur Gingrich".

However, I would suggest that you set up a digital lexicon right away. If you use a Windows based system, you can download a free copy of "TheWord". This is an excellent piece of software and comes with the LSJ lexicon, the Abbott-Smith lexicon and many other resources free. For about $25US you can add NA28 which is indexed to these system and you have quite a nice set up to support your GNT reading. Eventually you may want to acquire something like Accordance or BibleWorks, but those are serious investments and not necessary at the start.

There are also many very powerful resources available online, including lexicons.
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Paul-Nitz
Posts: 497
Joined: June 1st, 2011, 4:19 am
Location: Sussex, Wisconsin

Re: Introduction

Post by Paul-Nitz »

John and Thomas,

I sure don't want to negate what Thomas is saying about listening, but I do want John to hear another perspective. Listening to Greek is useful, in my opinion, if 90% of what you are hearing is fairly well understood. The listening will help you to stretch to understand the 10% unknown.

The main goal, I believe, of any language learning activity is to do some sort of manipulation with the linguistic information that results in it feeling like genuine communication.

So, let's take an example from information that might be called the least compatible with learning language communicatively: explicit grammatical explanations. Maybe the grammar described is that the "Subject of the Infinitive is an Accusative." It will give a rule and it will give some examples. Now, I need to take that information and "make it mine." Perhaps I'll imagine a real life situation in which I want to use the construction. I'm getting ready to start my day and wondering what might be the best thing to start with:

δεῖ με ἄρχεσθαι. τί ποιῶ; τί θέλει με ποιεῖν ὁ Θεός; κτλ...

The goal is to internalize these structures so that when we encounter them in reading (or listening) we respond with quick (if not automatic) comprehension.
Paul D. Nitz - Lilongwe Malawi
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Introduction

Post by Stephen Hughes »

I have only become interested in oral / aural very recently - 30 years after starting Greek. Apart from a little composition I haveghardly done anything else productive.


If you can stand the pressure that goes with moving faster than would be recommended as wise, then you can do a lot. Some people need to wait shorter or longer times after a crash or burn-out to start again. Other people need time to retrace steps, analyse what went wrong and then try again what went wrong. Then there are people for whom those things don't matter and they get on with their goals.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
John Wright
Posts: 15
Joined: December 13th, 2015, 10:12 pm

Re: Introduction

Post by John Wright »

Was this "I have to get started. What shall I do? What does God wish me to do?"
Thomas Dolhanty
Posts: 401
Joined: May 20th, 2014, 10:13 am
Location: west coast of Canada

Re: Introduction

Post by Thomas Dolhanty »

John Wright wrote:Was this "I have to get started. What shall I do? What does God wish me to do?"
ναί. καλῶς.

Well, I don’t want to pursue a pedagogical debate in the “Introductions” forum, especially on the eve of Christmas and also because I am not always sure which side I should argue. :) I have learned much from Randall Buth’s approach to teaching Biblical langauge as a real language, and from Paul and others who have put this into practice. Nevertheless, I would like to reaffirm what I said.
Paul Nitz wrote:The main goal, I believe, of any language learning activity is to do some sort of manipulation with the linguistic information that results in it feeling like genuine communication.
The main goal for most serious students of Biblical langauges, I suspect, is to be able to read the text intelligently, which I think means amongst other things to be able to reflect on the langauge in the language.
Paul Nitz wrote:So, let's take an example from information that might be called the least compatible with learning language communicatively: explicit grammatical explanations. Maybe the grammar described is that the "Subject of the Infinitive is an Accusative." It will give a rule and it will give some examples. Now, I need to take that information and "make it mine." Perhaps I'll imagine a real life situation in which I want to use the construction. I'm getting ready to start my day and wondering what might be the best thing to start with:

δεῖ με ἄρχεσθαι. τί ποιῶ; τί θέλει με ποιεῖν ὁ Θεός; κτλ...

The goal is to internalize these structures so that when we encounter them in reading (or listening) we respond with quick (if not automatic) comprehension
With this I essentially agree. What I do not agree with is that there is only one approach which will accomplish this. Stephen Hughes is and has been a very competent and accomplished reader of Greek – a professor of the language - and yet, as he has told us, for the most part he has not utilized methods that others deem essential. There are many others. Here is one of my favourite language quotes from C. S. Lewis’ autobiography:
C. S. Lewis wrote: “I arrived at Gastons (so the Knock’s house was called) on a Saturday, and he announced that we would begin Homer on Monday. I explained that I had never read a word in any dialect but the Attic, assuming that when he knew this he would approach Homer through some preliminary lessons on the Epic language. He replied merely with a sound very frequent in his conversation which I can only spell “Huh.” I found this rather disquieting; and I woke on Monday saying to myself, “Now for Homer. Golly!” The name struck awe into my soul. At nine o’clock we sat down in the little upstairs study which soon became so familiar to me. It contained a sofa (on which we sat side by side when he was working with me), a table and chair (which I used when I was alone), a bookcase, a gas stove, and a framed photograph of Mr. Gladstone. We opened our books at Iliad, Book I. Without a word of introduction Knock read aloud the first twenty lines or so in the “new” pronunciation, which I had never heard before. Like Smewgy, he was a chanter; less mellow in voice, yet full gutturals and rolling r’s and more varied vowels seemed to suit the Bronze Age epic as well as Smewgy’s honey tongue suited Horace. For Kirk, even after years of residence in England, spoke the purest Ulster. He then translated, with a few, a very few explanations, about a hundred lines. I had never seen a classical author taken in such large gulps before. When he had finished he handed me over Crusius’ Lexicon and, having told me to go through again as much as I could of what he had done, left the room. It seems an odd method of teaching, but it worked. At first I could travel only a very short way along the trail he had blazed, but every day I could travel further. Presently I could travel the whole way. Then I could go a line or two beyond the furthest North. Then it became something of a game to see how far beyond. He appeared at this stage to value speed more than absolute accuracy. The great gain was that I very soon became able to understand a great deal without (even mentally) translating it; I was beginning to think in Greek. That is the real Rubicon to cross in learning any language. Those in whom the Greek word lives only while they are hunting for it in the lexicon, and who then substitute the English word for it, are not reading Greek at all; they are only solving a puzzle. The very formula, “Naus means a ship,” is wrong. Naus and ship both mean a thing, they do not mean one another. Behind Naus, and behind navis or naca, we want to have a picture of a dark, slender mass with sail or oars, climbing the ridges, with no officious English word intruding.” C.S. Lewis, Surprised by Joy: The Shape of My Early Life, (pp. 140-141)
In recent times, the teaching of Biblical languages has become a bit of a scam, because students have been made to believe that somehow if you know enough Greek grammar and vocabulary, then you know Greek. You know Koine Greek in the sense of being able to read it intelligently when you can read and process in Greek – on this I think we are mostly all agreed here. On what this looks like exactly and how to get there, we have our differences. Some will insist that you must be able to speak the language more or less fluently to accomplish this. I should note here that I have found Greek composition and communicative exercises to be powerful tools in becoming proficient in the language. I am also convinced that with a language like Koine Greek, these tools are limited, and have a different place in Koine than they do in learning a modern living language.
Paul Nitz wrote:I sure don't want to negate what Thomas is saying about listening, but I do want John to hear another perspective. Listening to Greek is useful, in my opinion, if 90% of what you are hearing is fairly well understood. The listening will help you to stretch to understand the 10% unknown.

I have no idea where these numbers come from, but I do heartily disagree with this. My experience, the experience of Lewis, the experience of those I teach, is that hearing Greek read competently is of great benefit before you know the language, while you are learning the language, and after you know the language well.

Finally, John, it is a bit disorienting to encounter strong and differing positions when you are just starting out, but I think it is an important dynamic in how we all become better at the language. The goal for most of us is pretty clear. Simply stated, we would like to be able to read Koine Greek intelligently as a langauge in its own right. I believe there are different ways to get there. Part of the debate, I think, revolves around the fact that there are different methods that people utilize to "internalize" the language, and there always have been.
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John Wright
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Joined: December 13th, 2015, 10:12 pm

Re: Introduction

Post by John Wright »

I'm not especially worried about encountering strong and differing positions. On the contrary, I'm really glad to see that people on this board have thoughts about learning Greek. It makes me feel that, in a pinch, I can ask for opinions here and get something from the mass of material that folks offer.

I've been trying to ignore my pre-existing opinions formed from years of studying one modern language to a pretty good level of mastery (particularly for reading). Those opinions were largely formed against the prevailing fad in teaching that language, which is to ignore nearly all grammar. I just cut most of the rest of this paragraph -- I'm sure it's inappropriate for this board. Anyway, but when I think about the break between me and a few others and the main current in the teaching of that other language, I realize that the goals are different -- I think a positive and reasonable goal for reading / writing is to be able to read and write well, as an educated 'native', and that a positive and reasonable goal for speaking is to speak well and intelligibly, and to understand a wide variety of kinds of speech. Many people involved in teaching this are just not interested in those goals.

So, I feel refreshed and hopeful when I see that people around here think the same goals are worthwhile (and they sound reasonable to me), and have various approaches to them.

It seems obvious to me that I need to get a little more oriented (basic vocabulary, grammar) first, but I have some clearer ideas after reading this thread and the opening of Funk what I will try from there on. I'll adjust as I go, and will check back when I feel a need to.

Thanks again to all who have offered their thoughts here.
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