Post-hoc editing of B-Greek posts

Questions and discussion about B-Greek policies or the B-Greek forum.
Jonathan Robie
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Post-hoc editing of B-Greek posts

Post by Jonathan Robie » July 15th, 2014, 8:03 am

Kirk Lowery wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:The worst aspect, I find (as a high-volume user), of B-Greek is a user's inability to post hoc correct mistakes that later become very obvious. Things such as missing references, spelling mistakes, or in this case a glaringly obvious compositional error. I guess that the resulting record of errors suits some people's personality types and cultural expectations. Personally, I was brought up to right the wrongs I've done as best I can, not just to say sorry and move on.
I can understand your frustration. Speaking as the site administrator for the Biblical Hebrew Forum, I know that there is the technical possibility to permit a specific user to edit their own posts. This does not require becoming a moderator. But fundamentally it is an issue of trust. I'd recommend you contact one of the moderators or Jonathan Robie about this possibility.
I could indeed allow this. It's not allowed by default in phpBB, and I haven't enabled post-hoc editing for a simple reason: once you finish a post, people respond to it, often quoting it.

If you change what you said later, later posts may not make sense. For instance, suppose someone says something that later turns out to be wrong, the thread proceeds with 2 pages of discussion, then the original poster goes back and corrects the first post so that the mistake that the thread was discussing is no longer there. We now have 2 pages of discussion that no longer make sense.

So on balance, I don't think that we should try to go back and edit old posts, because it makes it really hard to follow the discussion if you don't know what the posts originally looked like before people started responding to them. It's better to write a new post that reflects your current understanding.

As I see it, a post does not represent final truth, but one stage in a conversation. The conversation as a whole is more important than a single post. Over time, we learn what we wish we had said the first time, and write it down as a new post.

But I'm open to discussion ...
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Kirk Lowery
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Re: Post-hoc editing of B-Greek posts

Post by Kirk Lowery » July 15th, 2014, 9:01 am

Jonathan,

I certainly am not advocating one way or the other. I agree with your philosophy in general. However, in Stephen's case, with some rules to follow, it might work. I note he puts a lot of effort into his posts, especially in the threads on reading texts. Those might be candidates for editing when errors are discovered. His only alternative is to repeat the entire post with the corrections. And maybe that is the best path...
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Kirk E. Lowery

Stephen Carlson
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Re: Post-hoc editing of B-Greek posts

Post by Stephen Carlson » July 15th, 2014, 10:54 am

Currently, there is an editing window until the next person comments. Is there a way to specify the window in hour/minute terms (like 30 minutes)? I've seen that on some blog commenting systems and I thought that worked pretty well.

Another option is let fairly trusted users modify their posts if they want. There are some people, and I'm one of them, who are a lot better at seeing my typos after pressing submit than before.
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Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Post-hoc editing of B-Greek posts

Post by Jonathan Robie » July 15th, 2014, 11:27 am

Stephen Carlson wrote:Currently, there is an editing window until the next person comments. Is there a way to specify the window in hour/minute terms (like 30 minutes)? I've seen that on some blog commenting systems and I thought that worked pretty well.
Yes, and it is currently set to 30 minutes.
Stephen Carlson wrote:Another option is let fairly trusted users modify their posts if they want. There are some people, and I'm one of them, who are a lot better at seeing my typos after pressing submit than before.
The setting is global, and applies equally to all users. I can't give the Stephens this ability without giving it to everyone.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Stephen Carlson
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Re: Post-hoc editing of B-Greek posts

Post by Stephen Carlson » July 15th, 2014, 11:47 am

Jonathan Robie wrote:
Stephen Carlson wrote:Currently, there is an editing window until the next person comments. Is there a way to specify the window in hour/minute terms (like 30 minutes)? I've seen that on some blog commenting systems and I thought that worked pretty well.
Yes, and it is currently set to 30 minutes.
OK, Stephen was under the impression that if someone replied immediately, the window automatically closes. Is that the case?
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Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Post-hoc editing of B-Greek posts

Post by Jonathan Robie » July 15th, 2014, 11:58 am

Stephen Carlson wrote:OK, Stephen was under the impression that if someone replied immediately, the window automatically closes. Is that the case?
I don't think so, but it's hard for me to test because my account can modify any post on the board at any time.

Stephen Hughes, could you test this?
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Bruce McKinnon
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Re: Post-hoc editing of B-Greek posts

Post by Bruce McKinnon » July 15th, 2014, 2:10 pm

Although I've yet to do many posts on B-Greek, my experience on an unrelated forum is that the 30 minute window for editing works well. It allows a person to correct goofs which are seen only after hitting the submit button but protects against the problem Jonathan outlined about a series of subsequent posts becoming nonsensical/irrelevant if a person can go back and fix an earlier post a day or so later. The 30 minute rule is a good compromise.
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Post-hoc editing of B-Greek posts

Post by Jonathan Robie » July 15th, 2014, 2:45 pm

Stephen Carlson wrote:OK, Stephen was under the impression that if someone replied immediately, the window automatically closes. Is that the case?
I now think this is the case - I was able to do a test that convinces me that it is so. As far as I can tell, there's no good way for me to change this without opening it up way too far.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Stephen Hughes
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I and wetting you cunning, I so tired.

Post by Stephen Hughes » July 15th, 2014, 3:03 pm

As many of you know, my computer, internet access situation is less than ideal, but better than 9 months ago at least. I have to write and put up a post fairly quickly, then I often edit the post at least, sometimes 10 times within the alotted 30 minutes.

If someone adds a post within my editing time, then it shows up with the message at the bottom, edited n times at the bottom. {For the sake of example, I added another post then edited this post twice}. If someone has not added a post and I edit, then it doesn't show up that I have edited. I think that regular posters have at least an inkling that my posts are in flux for a few minutes after I post and hesitate to reply quickly.

The case is different with PM's, where the fact that I edit is always visible (even if it is done immediately), but editing is not possible after the other party has read the message. PM's are less than 20% of my contribution to discussion on the board, and are a different kettle of fish.

Kirk is right about the Lysias posts now that it has started, it is moving at a faster than the "safe" pace that would allow error ellimination. Creatvity + expression + subjective interpretation + human frailty will inevitably lead to errors in form, content or expression. There are some quotes that have the reference quoted in the "index" page, but not in the to-and-fro of the discussion, which ae not worth reposting, but lower the overall quality of the exercise.

The Erotocritus post on the other hand was a leading (and it seems final) post, which I had the liberty to spend 3 or 4 weeks preparing, so it is at a high standard of error correction. I didn't expect no responses, but I had prepared for that eventuality, by making the post as comprehensive and self-contained as possible.

Ideally, I would hope that all posts could be indexed, with something like [index="Third person imperative"]ὑποτασσέσθω[/index], which users could add points of interest to an index, Ideally, a third field where the reference to a specific verse would be good to be able to add too. For verses [verse="ὑπηρέται ... τοῦ λόγου"]Luke 1:2[/verse] where the things that the poster identifies as central to the discussion would accompany the verse number in an index, viz, not just "Luke 1:2", but "Luke 1:2 ὑπηρέται ... τοῦ λόγου" would make the site 10x more useful, both now and in the future. I would not expect that the ὑπηρέται ... τοῦ λόγου would show up in the post, but at the top of the thread in the index, and in a board-wide index.
Stephen Hughes in the thread [url=http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=2631#p16249]Hello from Tim[/url] wrote:Many of us share your gratitude to those who put the forum together and to those who now maintain and moderate it.
This comment is 80% directed at the various moderators who have selflessly agreed to make minor, but significant corrections to my posts which are possibly misleading and definitely not what I intended to say. Everybody who reads my posts will of course recognise the apparent nonchalance with which I handle the Greek, freely changing the emphasis, slightly rephrasing so as to change the meaning, and substituting different words to completely alter the sense of the text, all as a way to discuss what was actually said. That is one side of the coin, the other side of the coin is that there are a small measure of people for whom Greek will be the greatest detriment to faith and understanding, and to 80% it is where I think that what I have said could be a stumbling block that I ask for help in correcting errors, the other 20% is for the forum in general and my own posts (vainity) to be of a more lasting and beneficial quality.
Stephen Hughes in [url=http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=2638#p16365]Introductions[/url] wrote:Welcome Malhon,
Let's discect, understand and mine the Greek together according to our all-to-frequent (mis-)understandings.
Stephen
I personally think it is a good that I do not have post hoc editing privilages from the point of view that when I am thinking about things deeply, I have less than adequate ability to express myself, and really poor group, interpersonal and social skills. I don't know why that is, but it has always been like that. As people will have noticed, that after admonition from an older moderator by PM, I have been making efforts to reduce my thought into various recognisable universes of discourse, rather than express them directly.

When I wrote that post, I meant it in the sense of, "We all share a partial understanding, but let's work together so that we can all benefit from the understandings that we have, and correct the misunderstanding that we may have", in effect "I look forward to seeing your insights into the Greek", but it didn't really come out that way.

I mean look at that post! Would you let someone who wrote that drive your recently restored Mustang Fastback? Of course not!! You'd be afraid he'd drive through the Central Park in reverse, rather than something predictable. Language to some extent does control thought, or at least shape its tendencies.

Being in a multi-lingual situation does affect my English detrimentally. Once one does let go of the bottom, and try to use any language, there is an immediately alarming effect on one's mother tongue. Thinking in Greek and then changing to English, there is sometimes a flow on effect of some aspects of the laguage that one was just thinking in. It is acrobatic, to say the least, to switch from saying 有发票巴!(in dialect) to a taxi driver, then hear "Welf tiddent Stevie end-tis fetch" from a couple of Irish friends, then listen to the pommies going on about Aussies being ill-bred convict stock - all in their own regional dialects, then hearing the illiterate Brazilian say, "Hey Stevie, I and wetting you cunning, I so tired. I and westerday have so many work, today his very tired, I and wonly sleeping two / tree or's. You waiting, I come back. Just see two guys. You sit and here waiting me later we talk. No problem." And then try to understand a passage in Greek, and post something creative / original about Greek in standard English, while I'm still thinking about the passage in Greek. Well nigh impossible! How can my English be water-tight!?!? There will inevitably be a lot of errors that creep in. Το μυαλό μου βράζει σαν καζάνι!!

It does take a while form me to get into an English way of thinking, when I need to use the standard language. And I thank people for their efforts to bear with my poor English in my posts. The standard of my English when I was living with my uncle in Benalla, or with my father's classmate in Sydney was much more relaxed and easier to write.
Last edited by Stephen Hughes on July 15th, 2014, 3:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Post-hoc editing of B-Greek posts

Post by Stephen Hughes » July 15th, 2014, 3:14 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:
Stephen Carlson wrote:OK, Stephen was under the impression that if someone replied immediately, the window automatically closes. Is that the case?
I now think this is the case - I was able to do a test that convinces me that it is so. As far as I can tell, there's no good way for me to change this without opening it up way too far.
No, this line was specificially brought up by me because of the Lysias thread. I would be happier if I could correct errors of fact at any time there, not to be limited to 30 minutes. That thread is getting many more hits than just Wes Wood could be making on it. It has turned out to be more than a passing point, where errors more-or-less pass to the keeper. It is still getting between 50 and 100 hits per day, and nothing has been added for a week. In the case of a thread like that, the effect of an error is much greater than one that is soon covered over by the sands of time.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

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