Ἔπρεπεν γὰρ αὐτῷ, δι’ ὃν τὰ πάντα καὶ δι’ οὗ τὰ πάντα, πολλο

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Ἔπρεπεν γὰρ αὐτῷ, δι’ ὃν τὰ πάντα καὶ δι’ οὗ τὰ πάντα, πολλο

Postby Mike Burke » February 9th, 2014, 7:35 pm

It looks like the Greek text of Heb. 2:10 reads

Ἔπρεπεν γὰρ αὐτῷ, δι’ ὃν τὰ πάντα καὶ δι’ οὗ τὰ πάντα, πολλοὺς υἱοὺς εἰς δόξαν ἀγαγόντα τὸν ἀρχηγὸν τῆς σωτηρίας αὐτῶν διὰ παθημάτων τελειῶσαι.

So wouldn't a literal translation be "thru whom are all things, and thru whom are all things"?

How does the same word get translated "for" and "by" in the same sentence?

Is it just cause it sounds better, or is there some better reason the first δι’ is translated "for," and the second one is translated "by"?

P.S. I know that to anyone who really knows Greek this is probably a stupid question, but I do find this puzzling, and would appreciate any replies.
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Re: Ἔπρεπεν γὰρ αὐτῷ, δι’ ὃν τὰ πάντα καὶ δι’ οὗ τὰ πάντα, π

Postby cwconrad » February 10th, 2014, 9:27 am

Mike Burke wrote:It looks like the Greek text of Heb. 2:10 reads

Ἔπρεπεν γὰρ αὐτῷ, δι’ ὃν τὰ πάντα καὶ δι’ οὗ τὰ πάντα, πολλοὺς υἱοὺς εἰς δόξαν ἀγαγόντα τὸν ἀρχηγὸν τῆς σωτηρίας αὐτῶν διὰ παθημάτων τελειῶσαι..

I'm not sure what you mean by "looks like."

Mike Burke wrote:So wouldn't a literal translation be "thru whom are all things, and thru whom are all things"?

No, because δι’ ὃν doesn't mean the same thing that δι’ οὗ means.

Mike Burke wrote:How does the same word get translated "for" and "by" in the same sentence?

I suggest you check on the difference between what διὰ means with the genitive and what it means with the accusative case.

Mike Burke wrote:Is it just cause it sounds better, or is there some better reason the first δι’ is translated "for," and the second one is translated "by"?

It's not because it sounds better; there is indeed a better reason.

Mike Burke wrote:P.S. I know that to anyone who really knows Greek this is probably a stupid question, but I do find this puzzling, and would appreciate any replies.

Things like this might be less puzzling if you would start to learn Greek rather than just ask questions about it.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
… ἐπειδὴ καὶ τὸν οἶνον ἠξίους
πίνειν, συνεκποτέ’ ἐστί σοι καὶ τὴν τρύγα Aristophanes, Plutus 1085
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How to use a dictionary intelligently.

Postby Stephen Hughes » February 10th, 2014, 10:12 pm

Hi Mike,
Below is LSJ's dictionary entry for διά. In the Green are the meanings for διά with the genitive, and in the Blue are the meanings for διά with the accusative.
**Scroll down and have a look at the different colours, then come back here**

You can see for yourself the difference between them. On the surface they look similar, but the content is the same. To be able to use a dictionary like this, you need to know the difference between genitive and the accusative. That difference can be seen because they are made up of different letters. One is ὃν and the other is οὗ - they look similar, but those letters are different. οὗ is genitive and ὃν is accusative.

Now, to look in the dictionary meaningfully, we need to look for the specific context which those words refer to. The Greek that you have quoted doesn't make it clear, so look around it.
**Look at an English translation of this verse (and those around it) and make an educated guess as to who it refers to, then come back here***

What did you guess? Many others (such as the NIV translators) have taken the person who this refers to to be God, so let's go with that. This information (it refers to God) will guide our use of the dictionary. Now we need to look at the possible categories in the dictionary.
**Look at the green "Genitive" part of the dictionary, and note the major headings there, do that and then come back here**

The ones that I have gotten from doing that are; I. of I. Place or Space, II. of Time, III. causal, through, by. "God" has to fit into one of these categories.
**Decide if in Christian theology, God is a Space, a time or a causal, through, by? Stop now. Make your decision then continue.**

In my understanding, God is not a Space. God is not a time. God might be a causal, through or by. So I will go with that one. Now we have to decide which part of that entry is the most suitable.
**Look at the green "Genitive" section, under section III. causal, through, by. Note down the sub-headings, then come back here**

They are; agent, insturment or means, manner. Which one of those is the most relevent to a Biblical understanding of God?
**Think about it, decide for yourself, then go on**

You will find a meaning for δι’ οὗ (assuming it is refering to God) in the entry that you choose.

**Now follow the same process for the accusative**

Mike, these are the steps that people work through to get to an answer to questions like the one you have posed. After you have followed them for yourself, you should have an understanding of the difference between δι’ οὗ and δι’ ὃν.

------LSJ Entry follows--------------------

διά , poet. διαί(Aeol. ζά , q.v.), Prep. governing gen. and acc.— Rad. sense,
A.through; never anastroph. [Prop. δι^α^: but Hom. uses ι_ at the beginning of a line, Il.3.357, 4.135, al.: also α_, metri gr., freq. in Hom., for which A. uses διαίin lyr., Ag.448, al.]

A. WITH GEN.

    I. of Place or Space:

      1. of motion in a line, from one end to the other, right through, in Hom. freq. of the effect of weapons, “διὰ μὲν ἀσπίδος ἦλθε . . ἔγχος καὶ διὰ θώρηκος . .” Il. 3.357; “δουρὶ βάλεν Δάμασον κυνέης διά” 12.183; “δι᾽ ὤμου . . ἔγχος ἦλθεν” 4.481; in Prose, “τιτρώσκειν διὰ τοῦ θώρακος” X.An.1.8.26; διὰ τοῦ ὀρόφου ἐφαίνετο πῦρ ib.7.4.16: also of persons, διὰ Σκαιῶν πεδίονδ᾽ ἔχον ὠκέας ἵππους out through the Scaean gate, Il.3.263; δι᾽ ἠέρος αἰθέρ᾽ ἵκανεν quite through the lower air even to the ether, Il.14.288, cf. 2.458; διὰ Τρώων πέτετο straight through them, 13.755; “δι᾽ ὄμματος . . λείβων δάκρυον” S.OC1250, etc.: also in Compos. with πρό and ἐκ, v. διαπρό, διέκ: in adverbial phrases, διὰ πασῶν (sc. χορδῶν), v. διαπασῶν: “διὰ πάσης” throughout,Th.1.14; “διὰ κενῆς” idly,Id.4.126, etc. (cf.111.1.c).

      2. of motion through a space, but not in a line, throughout, ouer, “ἑπόμεσθα διὰ πεδίοιο” Il.11.754; “δι᾽ ὄρεσφι” 10.185, al.; ὀδύνη διὰ χροὸς ἦλθε through all his frame, 11.398; “τεῦχε βοὴν διὰ ἄστεος” Od.10.118; “δι᾽ ὁμίλου” Il.6.226, etc.; “θορύβου διὰ τῶν τάξεων ἰόντος” X.An.1.8.16, cf. 2.4.26, etc.; later, in quoting an authority, “ἱστορεῖ δ. τῆς δευτέρας” in the course of . .,Ath.10.438b.

      3. in the midst of, Il.9.468; “κεῖτο τανυσσάμενος δ. μήλων” Od.9.298; between, “δ. τῶν πλευρέων ταμόντα” Hp.Morb.2.61: hence, of pre-eminence, “ἔπρεπε καὶ δ. πάντων” Il.12.104; “τετίμακε δι᾽ ἀνθρώπων” Pi.I.4(3).37; “εὐδοκιμέοντι δ. πάντων” Hdt.6.63, cf. 1.25, etc.

      4. in Prose, sts. of extension, along, “παρήκει δ. τῆσδε τῆς θαλάσσης ἡ ἀκτή” Id.4.39 (but πέταται δ. θαλάσσας across the sea, Pi.N.6.48); “λόφος, δι᾽ οὗ τὸ σταύρωμα περιεβέβληντο” X.HG7.4.22.

      5. in Prose, of Intervals of Space, δ. τριήκοντα δόμων at intervals of thirty layers, i. e. after every thirtieth layer, Hdt.1.179; δ. δέκα ἐπάλξεων at every tenth battlement, Th.3.21; cf. infr. 11.3: of a single interval, δ. πέντε σταδίων at a distance of five stades, Hdt.7.30, cf. 198; δ. τοσούτου μᾶλλον ἢ δ. πολλῶν ἡμερῶν ὁδοῦ at so short a distance, etc., Th.2.29; δ. πολλοῦ at a great distance apart, Id.3.94; “δ. πλείστου” Id.2.97; “δι᾽ ἐλάσσονος” Id.3.51; “ὕδατα δ. μακροῦ ἀλόμενα” Hp.Aër.9, etc.
    II. of Time,

      1. of duration from one end of a period to the other, throughout, δ. παντὸς [τοῦ χρόνου] Hdt.9.13; “δι᾽ ὅλου τοῦ αἰῶνος” Th.1.70; “δι᾽ αἰῶνος” S.El.1024; “δι᾽ ἡμέρας ὅλης” Ar.Pax 27; “δι᾽ ὅλης τῆς νυκτός” X.An.4.2.4, etc.: without an Adj., δι᾽ ἡμέρης all day long, Hdt.1.97; “δ. νυκτός” Th.2.4, X.An.4.6.22 (but δ. νυκτός in the course of the night, by night, Act.Ap.5.19, PRyl.138.15 (i A. D.), etc.); “δ. νυκτὸς καὶ ἡμέρας” Pl.R.343b; δι᾽ ἐνιαυτοῦ, δι᾽ ἔτους, Ar.Fr.569.8, V.1058; “δ. βίου” Pl.Smp.183e, etc.; “δ. τέλους” from beginning to end,A.Pr.275, Pl.R.519c, etc.: with Adjs. alone, “δ. παντός” continually,A.Ch.862 (lyr.), etc.; δι᾽ ὀλίγου for a short time, Th.1.77; “δ. μακροῦ” E.Hec.320; “ὁ δ. μέσου χρόνος” Hdt. 8.27.

      2. of the interval which has passed between two points of Time, δ. χρόνου πολλοῦ or δ. πολλοῦ χρ. after a long time, Id.3.27, Ar.Pl.1045; “δ. μακρῶν χρόνων” Pl.Ti.22d: without an Adj., δ. χρόνου after a time, S.Ph.758, X.Cyr.1.4.28, etc.; δι᾽ ἡμερῶν after several days, Ev.Marc.2.1; and with Adjs. alone, “δι᾽ ὀλίγου” Th.5.14; “οὐ δ. μακροῦ” Id.6.15,91; “δ. πολλοῦ” Luc.Nigr.2, etc.: with Numerals, “δι᾽ ἐτέων εἴκοσι” Hdt.6.118, cf. OGI56.38 (iii B. C.), etc.: but δ. τῆς ἑβδόμης till the seventh day, Luc.Hist.Conscr.21: also distributively, χρόνος δ. χρόνου προὔβαινε time after time, S.Ph.285; “ἄλλος δι᾽ ἄλλου” E.Andr.1248.

      3. of successive Intervals, δ. τρίτης ἡμέρης every other day, Hdt.2.37; δ. τρίτου ἔτεος ib.4, etc.; δ. πεντετηρίδος every four years (with inclusive reckoning), Id.3.97; δι᾽ ἔτους πέμπτου, of the Olympic games, Ar.Pl.584 (but δι᾽ ἑνδεκάτου ἔτεος in the course of the eleventh year, Hdt.1.62).

    III. causal, through, by,

        a. of the Agent, δι᾽ ἀλλέλων or -ου ἐπικηρυκεύεσθαι, ποιεῖσθαι, by the mouth of . ., Id.1.69,6.4, cf. 1.113; “δι᾽ ἑρμηνέως λέγειν” X.An.2.3.17, etc.; “τὸ ῥηθὲν ὑπὸ Κυρίου δ. τοῦ προφήτου” Ev.Matt.1.22; “δι᾽ ἑκόντων ἀλλ᾽ οὐ δ. βίας ποιεῖσθαι” Pl.Phlb.58b; πεσόντ᾽ ἀλλοτρίας διαὶ γυναικός by her doing, A.Ag.448 (lyr.); “ἐκ θεῶν γεγονὼς δ. βασιλέων πεφυκώς” X.Cyr.7.2.24; δι᾽ ἑαυτοῦ ποιεῖν τι of oneself, not by another's agency, ib.1.1.4, etc.; but also, by oneself alone, unassisted, D.15.14, cf. 22.38.

        b. of the Instrument or Means, δ. χειρῶν by hand (prop. by holding between the hands), “δι᾽ ὁσίων χ. θιγών” S. OC470; also δ. χερῶν λαβεῖν, δ. χειρὸς ἔχειν in the hand, Id.Ant. 916, 1258 (but τὰ τῶν ξυμμάχων δ. χειρὸς ἔχειν to keep a firm hand on, Th.2.13); “δ. στέρνων ἔχειν” S.Ant.639; “ἡ ἀκούουσα πηγὴ δι᾽ ὤτων” Id.OT1387; “δ. στόματος ἔχειν” X.Cyr.1.4.25; “δ. μνήμης ἔχειν” Luc.Cat.9; “αἱ δ. τοῦ σώματος ἡδοναί” X.Mem.1.5.6; δ. λόγων συγγίγνεσθαι to hold intercourse by word, Pl.Plt.272b; “δ. λόγου ἀπαγγέλλειν” Act.Ap.15.27; “δι᾽ ἐπιστολῶν” 2 Ep.Cor.10.9, POxy. 1070.15 (iii A. D.).

        c. of Manner (where διά with its Noun freq. serves as an Adv.), “δ. μέθης ποιήσασθαι τὴν συνουσίαν” Pl.Smp.176e; παίω δι᾽ ὀργῆς through passion, in passion, S.OT807; δ. τάχους, = ταχέως, Id.Aj.822, Th.1.63 (but δ. ταχέων ib.80, al.); δ. σπουδῆς in haste, hastily, E.Ba.212; δι᾽ αἰδοῦς with reverence, respectfully, ib.441; δ. ψευδῶν ἔπη lying words, Id.Hel.309; αἱ δ. καρτερίας ἐπιμέλειαι long-continued exertions, X.Mem.2.1.20; δι᾽ ἀκριβείας, δ. πάσης ἀκρ., Pl.Ti.23d, Lg.876c; “δ. σιγῆς” Id.Grg.450c; “δ. ξυμφορῶν ἡ ξύμβασις ἐγένετο” Th.6.10; “οὐ δι᾽ αἰνιγμάτων, ἀλλ᾽ ἐναργῶς γέγραπται” Aeschin.3.121; “δι᾽ αἵματος, οὐ δ. μέλανος τοὺς νόμους ὁ Δράκων ἔγραψεν” Plu.Sol.17: also with Adjs., δ. βραχέων, δ. μακρῶν τοὺς λόγους ποιεῖσθαι, Isoc.14.3, Pl.Grg.449b; ἀποκρίνεσθαι δ. βραχυτάτων ibid. d; cf. infr. IV.
      2 in later Prose, of Material out of which a thing is made, “κατασκευάζειν εἴδωλα δι᾽ ἐλέφαντος καὶ χρυσοῦ” D.S.17.115; “θυσίαι δι᾽ ἀλφίτου καὶ σπονδῆς πεποιημέναι” Plu.Num.8; “βρώματα δ. μέλιτος καὶ γάλακτος γιγνόμενα” Ath.14.646e; “οἶνος δ. βουνίου” Dsc. 5.46.
    IV.
      διά τινος ἔχειν, εἶναι, γίγνεσθαι, to express conditions or states, ἀγὼν διὰ πάσης ἀγωνίης ἔχων extending through every kind of contest, Hdt.2.91; “δι᾽ ἡσυχίης εἶναι” Id.1.206; δι᾽ ὄχλου εἶναι to be troublesome, Ar.Ec.888; “δ. φόβου εἶναι” Th.6.59; “δι᾽ ἀπεχθείας γίγνεσθαι” X.Hier.9.2; ἡ ἐπιμέλεια δ. χάριτος γίγνεται ibid.; “δ. μιᾶς γνώμης γίγνεσθαι” Isoc.4.138.

      b. with Verbs of motion, δ. μάχης ἐλεύσονται will engage in battle, Hdt.6.9; “ἐλθεῖν” Th.4.92; δ. παντὸς πολέμου, δ. φιλίας ἰέναι τινί, X.An.3.2.8; δ. δίκης ἰέναι τινί go to law with . ., S.Ant.742, cf. Th.6.60; “δ. τύχης ἰέναι” S.OT773; “δι᾽ ὀργῆς ἥκειν” Id.OC905; ἐμαυτῷ δ. λόγων ἀφικόμην I held converse with myself, E.Med.872; δ. λόγων, δ. γλώσσης ἰέναι come to open speech, Id.Tr.916, Supp.112; δ. φιλημάτων ἰέναι come to kissing, Id.Andr. 416; “δ. δικαιοσύνης ἰέναι καὶ σωφροσύνης” Pl.Prt.323a, etc.; δ. πυρὸς ἰέναι (v. πῦρ): in pass. sense, δι᾽ ἀπεχθείας ἐλθεῖν τινι to be hated by . ., A.Pr.121 (anap.).

      c. with trans. Verbs, δι᾽ αἰτίας ἔχειν or ἄγειν τινά hold in fault, Th.2.60, Ael.VH9.32; “δι᾽ ὀργῆς ἔχειν τινά” Th.2.37, etc.; “δ. φυλακῆς ἔχειν τι” Id.7.8; δι᾽ οἴκτου ἔχειν τινά, δι᾽ αἰσχύνης ἔχειν τι, E.Hec.851, IT683; “δ. πένθους τὸ γῆρας διάγειν” X.Cyr.4.6.6; “δι᾽ οὐδενὸς ποιεῖσθαί τι” S.OC584.

B. WITH Acc.

    I. of Place, only Poet., in same sense as διά c. gen.:

      1. through, “ἓξ δὲ δ. πτύχας ἦλθε . . χαλκός” Il.7.247; “ἤϊξε δ. δρυμὰ . . καὶ ὕλην” 11.118, cf. 23.122, etc.; δ. τάφρον ἐλαύνειν across it, 12.62; “δ. δώματα ποιπνύοντα” 1.600; “ἐπὶ χθόνα καὶ δ. πόντον βέβακεν” Pi.I.4(3).41; “φεύγειν δ. κῦμ᾽ ἅλιον” A.Supp.14 (anap.).

      2. through, among, in, “οἴκεον δι᾽ ἄκριας” Od.9.400; “ἄραβος δὲ δ. στόμα γίγνετ᾽ ὀδόντων” Il.10.375 (but μῦθον, ὃν . . δ. στόμα . . ἄγοιτο through his mouth, 14.91; so “δ. στόμα ὄσσαν ἱεῖσαι” Hes.Th.65; “ἀεὶ γὰρ ἡ γυνή σ᾽ ἔχει δ. στόμα” Ar.Lys.855); “δ. κρατερὰς ὑσμίνας” Hes.Th.631; “νόμοι δι᾽ αἰθέρα τεκνωθέντες” S.OT867 (lyr.).
    II. of Time, also Poet., “δ. νύκτα” Il.2.57, etc.; δ. γλυκὺν ὕπνον during sweet sleep, Mosch.4.91.

    III. causal:

      1. of persons, thanks to, by aid of,“νικῆσαι δ . . . Ἀθήνην” Od.8.520, cf. 13.121; “δ. δμῳὰς . . εἷλον” 19.154; δ. σε by thy fault or service, S.OC1129, Ar.Pl.145, cf. 160,170: in Prose, by reason of, on account of, “δ᾽̓ ἡμᾶς” Th.1.41, cf. X.An.7.6.33, D.18.249; “οὐ δι᾽ ἐμαυτόν” And.1.144; so εἰ μὴ διά τινα if it had not been for . ., “εἰ μὴ δι᾽ ἄνδρας ἀγαθούς” Lys.12.60; “Μιλτιάδην εἰς τὸ βάραθρον ἐμβαλεῖν ἐψηφίσαντο, καὶ εἰ μὴ δ. τὸν πρύτανιν ἐνέπεσεν ἄν” Pl.Grg.516e, cf. D.19.74; “εἰ μὴ δ. τὴν ἐκείνου μέλλησιν” Th.2.18, cf. Ar.V.558; “πλέον᾽ ἔλπομαι λόγον Ὀδυσσέος ἢ πάθαν γενέσθαι δι᾽ Ὅμηρον” Pi.N.7.21.

      2. of things, to express the Cause, Occasion, or Purpose, δι᾽ ἐμὴν ἰότητα because of my will, Il.15.41; “Διὸς μεγάλου δ. βουλάς” Od.8.82; δι᾽ ἀφραδίας for, through want of thought, 19.523; “δι᾽ ἀτασθαλίας” 23.67; δι᾽ ἔνδειαν by reason of poverty, X. An.7.8.6; δ. καῦμα, δ. χειμῶνα, ib.1.7.6; “δι᾽ ἄγνοιαν καὶ ἀμαθίαν” Pl. Prt.360b, etc.: freq. also with neut. Adjs., δ. τί; wherefore?; δ. τοῦτο, δ. ταῦτα on this account; δι᾽ ὅ, δι᾽ ἅ on which account; δ. πολλά for many reasons, etc.

      3. = ἕνεκα, to express Purpose, δἰ ἀχθηδόνα for the sake of vexing, Th.4.40, cf. 5.53; δ. τὴν τούτου σαφήνειαν with a view to clearing this up, Pl.R.524c, cf. Arist.EN 1172b21; αὐτή δι᾽ αὑτήν for its own sake, Pl.R.367b, etc.
    C. WITHOUT CASE as Adv. throughout, δ. πρό (v. supr. A.I.I); “δ. δ᾽ ἀμπερές” Il.11.377.
D. IN COMPOS.:

    I. through, right through, of Space, διαβαίνω, διέχω, διιππεύω.

    II. in different directions, as in διαπέμπω, διαφορέω; of separation, asunder, διαιρέω, διαλύω; of difference or disagreement, at variance, διαφωνέω, διαφέρω; or simply mutual relation, one with another, διαγωνίζομαι, διάδω, διαθέω, διαπίνω, διαφιλοτιμέομαι.

    III. pre-eminence, διαπρέπω, διαφέρω.

    IV. completion, to the end, utterly, διεργάζομαι, διαμάχομαι, διαπράττω, διαφθείρω: of Time, διαβιόω.

    V. to add strength, thoroughly, out and out, διαγαληνίζω, etc.; cf. ζά.

    VI. of mixture, between, partly, esp. in Adj., as διάλευκος, διάχρυσος, διάχλωρος, etc.

    VII. of leaving an interval or breach, διαλείπω, διαναπαύω. (Cogn. with δύο, δίς.)
Stephen Hughes
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself."
(Attributed to Albert Einstein)
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