βλασφημείσθω

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Re: βλασφημείσθω

Postby Hefin J. Jones » March 14th, 2014, 12:58 am

LSJ at perseus:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=βλασφημέω+&la=greek#lexicon

βλασφημ-έω , pf.

A.“βεβλασφήμηκα” D.18.10:—speak profanely of sacred things, “εἰς θεούς” Pl.R.381e; offer rash prayers, Id.Alc.2.149c; β. κατά τινος utter imprecations against, Aeschin.1.180.

2. speak ill or to the prejudice of one, slander, “περὶ τῆς ἐμῆς διατριβῆς” Isoc.15.2, cf. D.l.c., ib.82; “β. κατά τινος” Isoc.12.65, cf. Arist.Fr.44; “ὅσα εἰς ἡμᾶς ἐβλασφήμησαν” D.51.3; “β. τινά” Babr.71.6, Ev.Luc.23.39, etc.: abs., Phld.Lib.p.8 O.:—Pass., to have evil spoken of one, “βεβλασφημημένους” Id.Vit.p.12 J., cf. 1 Ep.Cor.10.30.

3. speak impiously or irreverently of God, blaspheme, “εἰς τὸν Κύριον” LXX Da.3.29(96); “εἰς τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον” Ev.Marc.3.29; εἰς τὰ θεῖα Vett. Val.58.12; “τοὺς θεούς” Id.67.20: abs., LXX 2 Ma.10.34, al., Ev.Matt.9.3.


NB usage "2" as well as "3"
Hefin Jones
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Re: βλασφημείσθω

Postby Mike Burke » March 26th, 2014, 8:24 pm

When used of people, does the word itself imply that the evil spoken (of some person) is false?
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Re: βλασφημείσθω

Postby Hefin J. Jones » March 26th, 2014, 8:52 pm

Since you're on this forum I'm guessing you have access to the internet?

(1) Follow the link above to Perseus

(2) Copy and paste the greek word in unicode (you can just do it from my post for instance)

(3) Search in the greek word study tool

(4) Hit the "show lexicon entry in... LSJ" link

(5) There you'll have LSJ open in front of you... and lo! and behold! the greek texts cited in the entry of LSJ are ***hyperlinked***... click away to your heart's content. You should be easily be able to see older but authoritative translations of the greek texts cited too after you click on them. (play with the 'focus" and "load" buttons next to the "english" and "greek" - you'll get the hang of it pretty quick.

You can decide for yourself where the evidence leads.
Hefin Jones
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MTh student - Moore College
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Re: βλασφημείσθω

Postby Mike Burke » March 27th, 2014, 12:01 am

Hefin J. Jones wrote:Since you're on this forum I'm guessing you have access to the internet?

(1) Follow the link above to Perseus

(2) Copy and paste the greek word in unicode (you can just do it from my post for instance)

(3) Search in the greek word study tool

(4) Hit the "show lexicon entry in... LSJ" link

(5) There you'll have LSJ open in front of you... and lo! and behold! the greek texts cited in the entry of LSJ are ***hyperlinked***... click away to your heart's content.

I did that, thank you.

Hefin J. Jones wrote:You can decide for yourself where the evidence leads.

Not really.

Under the second definition (if I understand it correctly), it says the Passive can mean "to have evil spoken of one, id=NTest."

That doesn't specify whether the evil spoken is necessarily untrue, and I'm unable to determine (either from my own very limitted knowledge of Greek, or the evidence provided by your source) whether that's implied in the word itself.)
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Re: βλασφημείσθω

Postby Mike Burke » March 27th, 2014, 12:11 am

The quote from Demosthenes would seem to inicate that the word itself doesn't imply that the evil spoken is untrue.

Surely it would have been right and proper, men of Athens, that those who claim to receive a crown from you, should show that they are worthy of it, and not speak ill of me. But since they leave out the former of these two things and do the latter, I shall show that they are speaking falsely both in their praise of themselves and in their slander of me; and I shall prove this by their own deeds and by mine.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:abo:tlg,0014,051:3&lang=original
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Re: βλασφημείσθω

Postby Hefin J. Jones » March 27th, 2014, 12:30 am

Hi again Mike,

I think you're doing just fine.

You know the saying that goes something along the lines of "Give a man a fish and you'll feed him for a day, teach a man to fish and you'll feed him for life" or whatever it is. Well I'm guessing that b-greek's task is to "teach" rather than "give"... point people to places where they can learn more, and point people to tools that can help them think through things for themselves. The question you've asked is a good one and one that I for one can't answer with any authority off the top of my head. What I've done is give you pointers to help you learn and think for yourself (which you're clearly able to do!).

As pointed out already there are a number of useful tools out there, some of the best tools are not freely available but heck there's LSJ 9th Ed (1940) with hyperlinks! It's pretty darn good if you ask me... It won't answer all your questions but it will help you think through things and find evidence... in fact no Lexicon is likely to answer all our questions, and no lexicon is an absolute authority... just a relatively good one.

I spent about 9 years interacting with greek without really being able to read greek or even describe in a broad way how it works and how it's different from both my native tongues, even three weeks of intensive learning turned my world of "understanding greek" upside down. And then continuing to learn over a year or two meant that I'm now OK reader of the NT, bit shaky on the LXX and Apostolic Fathers, find Epictitus hard work, and Classical - I need to work on that! I'm a "little-to-middling-greek" on this list with some understanding of current linguistics. I wish I could give greek (and probably hebrew and latin) a bit more time in my life but I can't see that happening for a while. The more time you can put in to learning to read the better. Maybe like me you need buddies or competition. You might want to find someone else to learn it along with you.
Hefin Jones
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MTh student - Moore College
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Re: βλασφημείσθω

Postby Mike Burke » March 27th, 2014, 1:05 am

Hefin J. Jones wrote:Hi again Mike,

I think you're doing just fine...

Thank you.

The first time I looked at that quote from Demosthenes, I didn't see any Greek text, and I made some assumptions.

I just downloaded the Greek text, and it still seems that my basic assumption was right (that the word under discussion here, of and by itself, doesn't necessarily imply that any evil spoken of a human being is untrue.)

[3] ἐχρῆν μὲν οὖν, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, καὶ δίκαιον ἦν τοὺς τὸν στέφανον οἰομένους δεῖν παρ᾽ ὑμῶν λαβεῖν αὑτοὺς ἀξίους ἐπιδεικνύναι τούτου, μὴ ἐμὲ κακῶς λέγειν. ἐπειδὴ δὲ τοῦτο παρέντες ἐκεῖνο ποιοῦσιν, ἀμφότερ᾽ αὐτοὺς ἐπιδείξω ψευδομένους, ἅ θ᾽ αὑτοὺς ἐνεκωμίασαν καὶ ὅσ᾽ εἰς ἡμᾶς ἐβλασφήμησαν, ἐξ αὐτῶν τῶν πεπραγμένων ἑκατέροις.

[3] Surely it would have been right and proper, men of Athens, that those who claim to receive a crown from you, should show that they are worthy of it, and not speak ill of me. But since they leave out the former of these two things and do the latter, I shall show that they are speaking falsely both in their praise of themselves and in their slander of me; and I shall prove this by their own deeds and by mine.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0080%3Aspeech%3D51%3Asection%3D3
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Re: βλασφημείσθω

Postby Mike Burke » March 27th, 2014, 1:42 am

P.S. I would have downloaded the Greek text sooner, but I didn't see that little button up top, and I didn't know how.

Thank you Mr. Jones.
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Re: βλασφημείσθω

Postby Hefin J. Jones » March 27th, 2014, 1:51 am

Glad you worked out how to make better use of perseus. I don't really use it enough. I'm sure you'll get the hang of it quicker than I have. There are I'm sure some perseus 'guns' out there in b-greek-world. It's one of those goldmines that are worth getting to know.
Hefin Jones
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MTh student - Moore College
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A few useful antonym pairs to help you understand βλασφημέω

Postby Stephen Hughes » March 27th, 2014, 5:28 am

At your pre-beginner level, questions about synonymity and nuance are really not useful for your overall progress in the language. I would like to encourage you again to learn some level-appropriate vocabulary.

Here are seven Greek lexical units arranged into antonym pairs which I think will help you understand what you are asking in this thread. Let me know if you think they are useful...
  • βλασφημέω "I blaspheme (God)" <-in reference to God-> εὐλογέω "I bless (God)" OR αἰνέω "I praise (God)" [two antonyms in the case of God]
  • βλασφημέω I speak evil against (somebody) <-in reference to a person-> καλῶς λέγω "I speak well of (somebody)"
  • ἀληθεύω "I speak truth" <-absolute-> ψεύδομαι "I lie"
Most of these are very common words and learners following some sort of structured study could be expected to know them - not necessarily in relation with each other - early on in their study.
Stephen Hughes
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself."
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