καταστησω and καταστήσω

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Re: καταστησω and καταστήσω

Postby Stephen Hughes » March 19th, 2014, 1:19 am

Mike Burke wrote:The only Greek lessons I've had were lessons in Modern Greek given by a Greek Orthodox priest.

(I think the intent was to help English speaking parishioners follow along and understand the liturgy better.)

The Greek Orthodox liturgy is in Classical / Koine Greek. It was composed by St Basil and then "shortened" by St John Chrysostom (so the laity didn't have to listen to all of the priest's prayers - liturgical multitasking).

If you are listening to the liturgy every week in Greek and following it in an English translation. You can buy your own copy and underline a few words to learn each week. Liturgies use the same phrase over and over again. Start with the Our father, or the Creed which the whole congregation say together. The word in the dictionary that looks like the one in the liturgy book and has the same meaning as the English translations is probably the one you should be looking at. If your Church has given you a book to follow that has Greek characters on the left and the pronunciation on the right, but no English, let me know - John Lee has been sitting on a committee in Sydney to make an accurate but simple translation of that liturgy which you could buy, study at home and then understand something of what you are listening to.
Stephen Hughes
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself."
(Attributed to Albert Einstein)
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Re: καταστησω and καταστήσω

Postby George F Somsel » March 19th, 2014, 2:23 am

Mike Burke wrote

I also find it convenient to use google translate (even with the surprizing results I sometimes get.)


Yes, Google translate is helpful though not always very accurate. Once I copied a Latin passage into it rather than spending the time to translate it myself only to find that it inserted a Swedish word into the translation. To say the least, I was quite surprised.
george
gfsomsel



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defend the truth till death.



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Re: καταστησω and καταστήσω

Postby Stephen Carlson » March 19th, 2014, 2:42 am

George F Somsel wrote:Yes, Google translate is helpful though not always very accurate. Once I copied a Latin passage into it rather than spending the time to translate it myself only to find that it inserted a Swedish word into the translation. To say the least, I was quite surprised.

Vad konstigt! I could handle that now.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D. (Duke, New Testament)
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Re: καταστησω and καταστήσω

Postby Barry Hofstetter » March 19th, 2014, 7:39 am

Mike Burke wrote:
The only Greek lessons I've had were lessons in Modern Greek given by a Greek Orthodox priest.

(I think the intent was to help English speaking parishioners follow along and understand the liturgy better.)

My goal was to read the New Testament in the Greek text on the right hand side of the Greek/English edition of the New Testament he gave me, and I never quite reached that goal.

To be honest, I never came close, but I'm trying (and, in some ways, it seems easier to start with modern Greek.)

I also find it convenient to use google translate (even with the surprizing results I sometimes get.)


Mike, herein lies a big part of the problems you are having. Modern Greek and ancient Greek are not the same. Someone growing up with modern Greek needs to learn ancient as a different language. Yes, there are lot of similarities, but it would be like a modern English speaker sitting down to read Beowulf in the original Anglo-Saxon without any instruction -- it can't be done. There have been too many changes in the language over the centuries.

When I was pursuing my undergrad in Classics, we used occasionally to get native Greek students in our "easier" Greek classes, primarily NT and Xenophon. If the student had actually studied ancient Greek prior to the class, he or she did about as well as the students who started ancient Greek in their freshman year of college. If they hadn't, they ended up having a lot of trouble, clearly showing that they didn't really understand ancient Greek. In fact, their knowledge of modern Greek would often lead them astray as to what the ancient author was actually saying.

So the moral of the story? Get started studying ancient Greek from chapter 1 of a primer or the equivalent, and get a good foundation.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
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Re: καταστησω and καταστήσω

Postby Jonathan Robie » March 19th, 2014, 8:52 am

George F Somsel wrote:Yes, Google translate is helpful though not always very accurate. Once I copied a Latin passage into it rather than spending the time to translate it myself only to find that it inserted a Swedish word into the translation. To say the least, I was quite surprised.


To get a flavor for the level of accuracy, here is the same passage translated to Greek, then to German, then to English:

Yes, this is Google Translate helpful if not always very accurate. Once I copied spend a Latin passage in it, rather than the time to translate it to find me just imported a Swedish word translation. To say the least, I was quite surprised.


I tried doing it directly back to English, but it was smart enough to remember the passage I had originally translated and simply give me that text back. My guess is they expect people to do that test to see how accurate it is and have a cache to recognize the most recently translated text.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Re: καταστησω and καταστήσω

Postby Jonathan Robie » March 19th, 2014, 8:54 am

Barry Hofstetter wrote:So the moral of the story? Get started studying ancient Greek from chapter 1 of a primer or the equivalent, and get a good foundation.


I agree.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Re: καταστησω and καταστήσω

Postby Shirley Rollinson » March 19th, 2014, 10:59 pm

Mike Burke wrote: - - - snip snip - - -
The only Greek lessons I've had were lessons in Modern Greek given by a Greek Orthodox priest.

(I think the intent was to help English speaking parishioners follow along and understand the liturgy better.)

My goal was to read the New Testament in the Greek text on the right hand side of the Greek/English edition of the New Testament he gave me, and I never quite reached that goal.

To be honest, I never came close, but I'm trying (and, in some ways, it seems easier to start with modern Greek.)

I also find it convenient to use google translate (even with the surprizing results I sometimes get.)

Yassas Mike, Welcome to B-Greek.
I'd caution against starting with modern Greek if your primary aim is to read the GNT. It's almost like setting yourself up to learn two languages. There are some tricky diferences (e.g. how to say "No") I teach koine Greek, and my students have access to the college Language Lab - with Rosetta Stone Modern Greek as one of the languages installed. One semester I let one of the Advanced Greek classes do an hour a week in the Language Lab instead of their ususal "translation and exegesis" - and they all agreed it was "different" - and not easy to make the switch. A bit like asking an American to read Beowulf or Caedmon.
Also, your Greek priest teacher may be reading his GNT with a modern Greek pronunciation (I've know several modern Greeks who do that) - They understand it, but non-Greeks who learned at seminary or college generally pronounce things differently, so it makes communication a bit tricky. I've also had a studnet who decided that she needed some extra tutoring in (koine) Greek - so she went for tutoring to a (modern) Greek-speaking friend who managed to get her even more confused.
So - if you want to read and understand the Greek of the GNT (without the training-wheels or crutch of an Interlinear or Parallel), my advice would be to commit to the discipine of some study each day, read a short passage of the GNT **aloud** in Greek - I often start my students off with "the begats" (Matthew, chapter 1) until it no longer seems strange or scary to speak aloud. "The begats" are easy to understand, even if the names are strange - that's part of pronunciation practice. Then spend some time each day with a textbook, try to start learning the beginning grammar and maybe five new vocabulary words each week, do some of the exercises in your textbook, and ask for help from B-Greekers whenever you have a question.
That should get you into the simpler parts of the GNT within a couple of months.
(If you're not serious about committing to regular study and learning, then it's best to face that decision right now, and choose something else.) But I can tell you, regular reading of the GNT is worth the time and effort.
For a textbook that uses the "reading" approach, you're welcome to try the Online Greek Tesbook
http://www.drshirley.org/greek/textbook01/index.html
or
http://www.drshirley.org/greek/textbook02/index.html

Welcome to B-Greek,
Shirley Rolinson.
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Re: καταστησω and καταστήσω

Postby Mike Burke » March 20th, 2014, 1:42 am

Yassou,

And thank you.
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Re: καταστησω and καταστήσω

Postby Mike Burke » March 21st, 2014, 6:53 pm

I've book marked your Online Greek Textbook, and this Online Greek New Testament.

Thank you.
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