καταστησω and καταστήσω

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Re: καταστησω and καταστήσω

Postby Stephen Carlson » March 16th, 2014, 4:11 am

Mike Burke wrote:
Stephen Carlson wrote:
Mike Burke wrote:The biblical word (καταστησω) seems to be translated "make" (or "I will make") in Matthew 25:21&23.?

Which translations have you consulted? The most common ones (NRSV, NIV, etc.) have "I will put (you) in charge" or something like that.


I consulted the KJV and the NKJV.

They both have "I will make."

Almost, but not quite. Their translation is actually "I will make (thee/you) ruler."

Mike Burke wrote:
Stephen Carlson wrote:For the meaning of this common verb in Ancient Greek, you can consult the entry in a lexicon here: http://stephanus.tlg.uci.edu/lsj/#eid=5 ... rom-search


Thank you, but the form of this verb that we're discussing here doesn't seem to be that common.

I went to the link you gave me, and καταστησω isn't listed or discussed, and it's not used in any of the examples given.

That's because καταστήσω is future and futures are relatively uncommon. But that's really irrelevant to what the verb means. The modern Greek καταστησω is not a future but a subjunctive, which may be why it seems more common.

Mike Burke wrote:
Stephen Carlson wrote:...you can consult the entry in a lexicon here: http://stephanus.tlg.uci.edu/lsj/#eid=5 ... rom-search


Do you have to register and log in (and do you have to be a student or faculty member to register?)

No, it should be available to all.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D. (Duke, New Testament)
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Re: καταστησω and καταστήσω

Postby Mike Burke » March 16th, 2014, 8:24 am

Actually, don't they add the word "ruler"?

Wouldn't an interlinear read something like this?

ἐπὶ____πολλῶν____σε__καταστήσω·
Over_many things__you__will I make__ruler.
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Re: καταστησω and καταστήσω

Postby George F Somsel » March 16th, 2014, 1:20 pm

Stephen Carlson wrote

There used to be a good Modern Greek lexicon, but now they've password protected it.


For modern Greek words it is possible to use Google Translate (http://translate.google.com/).
george
gfsomsel



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Re: καταστησω and καταστήσω

Postby Stephen Carlson » March 16th, 2014, 2:06 pm

Mike Burke wrote:Actually, don't they add the word "ruler"?

Wouldn't an interlinear read something like this?

ἐπὶ____πολλῶν____σε__καταστήσω·
Over_many things__you__will I make__ruler.

Which interlinear does that? But at any rate, interlinears are not authorities for what words mean. You need good dictionaries for that.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D. (Duke, New Testament)
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Re: καταστησω and καταστήσω

Postby Jonathan Robie » March 16th, 2014, 4:23 pm

Mike - have you looked up the word καταστήσω in a New Testament Greek lexicon? Even in the Beginner's Forum, I would think that should be the first step. What lexicons do you have access to?

The dictionary form of καταστήσω is καθίστημι, which is used 21 times in the New Testament. You ask why καταστήσω appears only 2 times, it does not usually appear in the 1st person future tense. Do you know how to find the dictionary form of a verb when it appears in running text? In the short run, you use software as a crutch, e.g. by reading your text at http://www.laparola.net/greco/, and you should really do that and look up the meaning in a lexicon before starting a thread here.

Here's Abbott-Smith's definition of the word. Note that it refers to your verse in definition #2:

καθ-ίστημι (and καθιστάνω, Ac 17:15), [in LXX for פָּקַד, קוּם, שׂוּם, etc., 24 words in all* ;]
1. (a) to set down;
(b) to bring down to a place (Hom., Xen., al.; II Ch 28:15, I Ki 5:3): Ac 17:15.
2. to set in order, appoint, make, constitute: Tit 1:5, II Pe 1:8; c. dupl. acc, κριτήν, Lk 12:14; ἡγούμενον, Ac 7:10; ἄρχοντα, Ac 7:27, 35 (LXX); ἀρχιερεῖς, He 7:28; seq. ἐπί, c. gen., Mt 24:45 25:21, 23, Lk 12:42, Ac 6:3; id. c. dat., Mt 24:47, Lk 12:44; id. c. acc, He 2:7 (LXX) (WH, R, mg. omit); pass. (v. Mayor, Ja., 115 f.), Ro 5:19, Ja 3:6 4:4; seq. εἰς c. inf., He 8:3; τὰ πρὸς τ. θεόν, He 5:1 (cf. ἀντι-, ἀπο-καθίστημι).


I hope this helps, but I also think that you need to get to where you can identify the dictionary form of a verb and look it up in a lexicon. In the short run you can use software to help, but as long as you need to do that, your reading skills will be very limited.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Re: καταστησω and καταστήσω

Postby Mike Burke » March 16th, 2014, 8:29 pm

George F Somsel wrote:Stephen Carlson wrote

There used to be a good Modern Greek lexicon, but now they've password protected it.


For modern Greek words it is possible to use Google Translate (http://translate.google.com/).


Thank you.

I get some strange results from Google translate sometimes.
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Re: καταστησω and καταστήσω

Postby Stephen Carlson » March 17th, 2014, 5:07 am

Jonathan Robie wrote:Mike - have you looked up the word καταστήσω in a New Testament Greek lexicon? Even in the Beginner's Forum, I would think that should be the first step. What lexicons do you have access to?

I'd like to follow up. Mike, I'm curious why you are looking to Modern Greek instead of a standard NT Greek lexicon for the meaning of this word. Is it not giving you the answer that you want?
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D. (Duke, New Testament)
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Re: καταστησω and καταστήσω

Postby Alan Patterson » March 17th, 2014, 11:06 am

Stephen wrote:

Perhaps you can consult a Modern Greek dictionary for the word καθιστὠ or ask a modern Greek.


καθιστὠ in modern Greek means to install or establish, to make is καποιο, to appoint is διοριζω. This is based on the Collins Gem Greek Dictionary.
χαρις υμιν και ειρηνη,
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Re: καταστησω and καταστήσω

Postby Mike Burke » March 18th, 2014, 9:49 pm

Stephen Carlson wrote:
Jonathan Robie wrote:Mike - have you looked up the word καταστήσω in a New Testament Greek lexicon? Even in the Beginner's Forum, I would think that should be the first step. What lexicons do you have access to?

I'd like to follow up. Mike, I'm curious why you are looking to Modern Greek instead of a standard NT Greek lexicon for the meaning of this word. Is it not giving you the answer that you want?


The only Greek lessons I've had were lessons in Modern Greek given by a Greek Orthodox priest.

(I think the intent was to help English speaking parishioners follow along and understand the liturgy better.)

My goal was to read the New Testament in the Greek text on the right hand side of the Greek/English edition of the New Testament he gave me, and I never quite reached that goal.

To be honest, I never came close, but I'm trying (and, in some ways, it seems easier to start with modern Greek.)

I also find it convenient to use google translate (even with the surprizing results I sometimes get.)
Last edited by Mike Burke on March 18th, 2014, 9:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: καταστησω and καταστήσω

Postby Mike Burke » March 18th, 2014, 9:49 pm

Alan Patterson wrote:Stephen wrote:

Perhaps you can consult a Modern Greek dictionary for the word καθιστὠ or ask a modern Greek.


καθιστὠ in modern Greek means to install or establish, to make is καποιο, to appoint is διοριζω. This is based on the Collins Gem Greek Dictionary.


Thank you.
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