ἐς φῶς σὸν

The forum for those who still struggle with morphology, syntax, and idiom, or who wish to discuss basic questions about the meaning of Greek texts, syntax, or words.
Forum rules
This is not a place for students to ask for the answers to their homework assignments. Users who do that may be banned.
Mike Burke
Posts: 72
Joined: February 7th, 2014, 8:07 am

Re: ἐς φῶς σὸν

Post by Mike Burke » March 20th, 2014, 1:26 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:It's not just context, it's also the way the grammar works. "He built a house" does not involve repetition. "He built houses" involves repetition.
Because the word "houses" is plural, and because that plural form of the word "house" is in the context, right?
Jonathan Robie wrote:Same verb, same verb form.
But the word "built" (of and by itself) doesn't contain the idea of repetition (the way the word "rebuilt" would), does it?

What I'm trying to find out here is whether the word καταστήσω (of and by itself) contains the idea of repetition?

It seems to me that Barry and Stephen suggest that it does, and I want to know if I'm understanding them correctly.
0 x



Jonathan Robie
Posts: 3577
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:34 pm
Location: Durham, NC
Contact:

Re: ἐς φῶς σὸν

Post by Jonathan Robie » March 20th, 2014, 1:55 pm

Mike Burke wrote:
Jonathan Robie wrote:It's not just context, it's also the way the grammar works. "He built a house" does not involve repetition. "He built houses" involves repetition.
Because the word "houses" is plural, and because that plural form of the word "house" is in the context, right?
First, pick a New Testament Greek textbook, then let's talk about which chapters you are reading on the verb, and let's come back to this question after that.

Do you know which tenses New Testament Greek has? Do you know how those tenses are used, and how they interact with the basic meaning of the verb? That's what you will learn from a textbook.

You didn't respond to this:
Jonathan Robie wrote:Now you *really* need to read a few chapters in a New Testament Greek textbook about Greek tenses and how they interact with the basic meaning of a word. What New Testament Greek textbooks do you have?

I would like to be able to give you homework, things that you should read and try to understand, asking questions when you don't understand the textbook. I don't think B-Greek can substitute for a textbook.
It's the next step. And it is B-Greek policy:
In the Beginner's Forum, we welcome beginners who do not yet have a working knowledge of Biblical Greek, and are working to learn the language. We want to help. Even basic questions about the meaning of the Greek text are welcome in the Beginner's Forum, and there's no shame in mistakes. Beginners will be gently pushed toward learning these structures over time, pointed to textbooks and other aids that will help them, and coached in how to see these structures in a text. Learning a language is all about learning the structure signals, so we will try to help you learn what these signals are and how to recognize them in a text.

Even in the Beginner's forum, general questions or opinions about doctrine or the meaning of the English text are not welcome.
So what textbook are you using? I sent you some suggestions in email. Shirley also pointed you to her course.
0 x
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Jonathan Robie
Posts: 3577
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:34 pm
Location: Durham, NC
Contact:

Re: ἐς φῶς σὸν

Post by Jonathan Robie » March 20th, 2014, 2:10 pm

Mike Burke wrote:What I'm trying to find out here is whether the word καταστήσω (of and by itself) contains the idea of repetition?
Are you asking about the root meaning of καθίστημι? What does the lexicon say? Do you know that this is the dictionary form of the verb, and how to find that out for yourself? Do you know that καταστήσω and καθίστημι are the same word, and why they look so different?

Or are you asking whether καθίστημι indicates repetition in the 1st person future active indicative singular form? Do you know what all those words mean? If not, you are not ready to ask this question, and the answer won't make sense to you.

I don't want to hand you a fish here. I think you need to learn to fish. That starts with working through a textbook, or some other approach that is equivalent.
0 x
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Mike Burke
Posts: 72
Joined: February 7th, 2014, 8:07 am

Re: ἐς φῶς σὸν

Post by Mike Burke » March 20th, 2014, 4:18 pm

Do you know which tenses New Testament Greek has?
Present, perfect, imperfect, future, pluperfect, and 1rst and second aorist.
Do you know how those tenses are used, and how they interact with the basic meaning of the verb?
I got a basic idea from a book by Mounce.

I probably still have that book in the garage or storage room, along with a lot of other stuff I haven't gone thru since mom was taken from us eight months after we moved here.

But I don't think it was a college level textbook, and I don't really feel up to going thru that stuff.

If Shirley mentioned an online textbook, and it doesn't cost anything, I'd like to start using it, but then I know I'll be posting questions on the textbooks thread, and I can't afford a conventional textbbok right now.

You see, I haven't worked since dad had a stroke three months after mom left us, and right now we have less than a hundred dollars to get thru the rest of this month.
Or are you asking whether καθίστημι indicates repetition in the 1st person future active indicative singular form?
καταστήσω is 1rst person active indicative singular, and that's the word I keep asking about here on the beginners forum.

All I really want to know is whether that particular form of the word (of and by itself) contains the idea of repetition, and as someone who well remembers how much college textbooks cost, I'm pretty sure I'd be able to understand a straight answer (if I could get one.)

I have an associates in criminal justice, and a bachelor's in behavioral science, and even though my college training didn't keep me from overdosing on some pills (on one of my half brother's rare visits to this state, when dad might have had someone else to take care of him here two years ago), and has left me with little more than a lot of student loan debt I'll probably never live long enough to pay back, I really think I could follow along if you (or Barry, or Stephen) would just answer the question.

Thank you.
0 x

Jonathan Robie
Posts: 3577
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:34 pm
Location: Durham, NC
Contact:

Re: ἐς φῶς σὸν

Post by Jonathan Robie » March 20th, 2014, 6:34 pm

Mike Burke wrote:
Or are you asking whether καθίστημι indicates repetition in the 1st person future active indicative singular form?
καταστήσω is 1rst person active indicative singular, and that's the word I keep asking about here on the beginners forum.

All I really want to know is whether that particular form of the word (of and by itself) contains the idea of repetition, and as someone who well remembers how much college textbooks cost, I'm pretty sure I'd be able to understand a straight answer (if I could get one.)
OK, let's start with the textbook issue. There are a number of resources that you can access for free. Some of these are online. Shirley has pointed you to one (http://www.drshirley.org/greek/textbook02/index.html), Micheal Palmer's site is another (http://www.greek-language.com/grammar/), Funk's grammar is a third (http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/project/f ... pre-alpha/). These are all good. Dig out Mounce and tell us which book it is, he has written some very usable books that we love to quibble with, but you can certainly learn Greek from them.

Now let's go back to the form of καταστήσω. There are three useful clues to answer your question:

1. What does the lexicon say about the meaning of the verb. I gave you that definition earlier in the thread, did it say anything about repetition?
2. What do the grammars say about future active indicative? 1st person singular just translates to "I", the verb will operate the same way when the subject is plural or 2nd person or 3rd person. Do they say anything about repetition?
3. There is an interaction between the root meaning of the verb and the syntax. If you look at examples of that verb in that form, do you see anything that introduces the concept of repetition?

That's your homework for now ...
0 x
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Mike Burke
Posts: 72
Joined: February 7th, 2014, 8:07 am

Re: ἐς φῶς σὸν

Post by Mike Burke » March 20th, 2014, 7:11 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote: 1. What does the lexicon say about the meaning of the verb. I gave you that definition earlier in the thread, did it say anything about repetition?
If you mean the link you gave me on the other thread, it did say something about repetition (but I'm not sure I understand what it said, and that's why I started this thread.)

I'll underline what I found confusing in the source you cited.
2. bring down to a place, τούς μ’ ἐκέλευσα Πύλονδε καταστῆσαι Od.13.274: generally, bring, κ. τινὰ ἐς Νάξον Hdt.1.64, cf. Th.4.78; esp. bring back, πάλιν αὐτὸν κ. ἐς τὸ τεῖχος σῶν καὶ ὑγιᾶ Id.3.34; κ. τοὺς Ἕλληνας εἰς Ἰωνίαν πάλιν X.An.1.4.13; without πάλιν, replace, restore, ἐς φῶς σὸν κ. βίον E.Alc.362; ἃς (sc. τὰς κόρας) οὐδ’ ὁ Μελάμπους . . καταστήσειεν ἄν cure their squint, Alex.112.5; ἰκτεριῶντας κ. Dsc.4.1; τὸ σῶμα restore the general health, Hp.Mul. 2.133:—Med., κατεστήσαντο (v.l. for κατεκτήσαντο) εὐδαιμονίαν Isoc. 4.62:—Pass., οὐκ ἂν ἀντὶ πόνων χάρις καθίσταιτο would be returned, Th. 4.86.
http://stephanus.tlg.uci.edu/lsj/#eid=5 ... rom-search

If "esp." means especially, the definition given here would seem to imply that the word itself contains the idea of repetition (and that's what I understood Barry and Stephen to be saying.)

Is that correct?

2. What do the grammars say about future active indicative? 1st person singular just translates to "I", the verb will operate the same way when the subject is plural or 2nd person or 3rd person. Do they say anything about repetition?
No!
3. There is an interaction between the root meaning of the verb and the syntax. If you look at examples of that verb in that form, do you see anything that introduces the concept of repetition?

I see no examples of the future indicative first person singular given by the source you cited
, and I don't understand what you're saying.

Does καθίστημι indicate repetition in the 1st person future active indicative singular form?
Dig out Mounce and tell us which book it is, he has written some very usable books that we love to quibble with, but you can certainly learn Greek from them.
I remember the title now.

It was "Greek for the Rest of Us."

It wasn't a college level text book, and I'd rather hang myself from the tree in the back yard than go through the things in the storage shed.
There are a number of resources that you can access for free. Some of these are online. Shirley has pointed you to one (http://www.drshirley.org/greek/textbook02/index.html), Micheal Palmer's site is another (http://www.greek-language.com/grammar/), Funk's grammar is a third (http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/project/f ... pre-alpha/). These are all good.
I thank you for those links, and I will use them when (and if) I'm feeling better.

Right now dad has a urinary tract infection, and I'm recovering from exacerbated COPD.

He's on Macrobid, and I'm on Prednisone and Azithromycin.

I've given you some of the homework you asked for off the top of my head here.

Could you please just answer my question and stop playing games?

Does καθίστημι indicate repetition in the 1st person future active indicative singular form?

BTW: I'm sick, I'm 55 years old, I wore out the rotator cuff in my right shoulder working blue collar jobs before I was told that I was reading at a college level and should probably go back to school, and I was working on a Master's degree four years ago.

Dad and I are hoping to leave this house together when we're called, and if we don't, I don't think I'll outlive him by much, because COPD isn't the only thing I'd be woried about if I were still inclined to worry about such things.

I'd probably have a biopsy done.

The point is that I probably don't have as much time as most of your older students, and I really would appreciate it if you'd stop treating me like one of them.
0 x

Barry Hofstetter
Posts: 1475
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: ἐς φῶς σὸν

Post by Barry Hofstetter » March 20th, 2014, 11:54 pm

Mike Burke wrote:
Jonathan Robie wrote:It's not just context, it's also the way the grammar works. "He built a house" does not involve repetition. "He built houses" involves repetition.
Because the word "houses" is plural, and because that plural form of the word "house" is in the context, right?
Jonathan Robie wrote:Same verb, same verb form.
But the word "built" (of and by itself) doesn't contain the idea of repetition (the way the word "rebuilt" would), does it?

What I'm trying to find out here is whether the word καταστήσω (of and by itself) contains the idea of repetition?

It seems to me that Barry and Stephen suggest that it does, and I want to know if I'm understanding them correctly.
I never said nor implied that it has the idea of repetition. "Restore" or "bring back" does not necessarily imply repetition, even in English
0 x
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
Χαίρετε ἐν κυρίῳ πάντοτε· πάλιν ἐρῶ, χαίρετε

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Unfamiliar subjects - Medicine and Grammar

Post by Stephen Hughes » March 21st, 2014, 1:02 am

Mike Burke wrote:Could you please just answer my question and stop playing games? ...

Does καθίστημι indicate repetition in the 1st person future active indicative singular form?
Nobody is playing games. You need to know more of the basics before you can understand the answers to the questions you are trying to ask.

When you mention those medical things, they sound medical to me, but I don't understand them. I haven't studied medicine and don't have an interest in it. There is no shame in sickness, it happens to everybody in various ways, its just a part of the life we live here. When I go to the doctor, he says "You need ...", I say "OK". If I was to understand those medical things that you mentioned, I would have to study them. Take things step-by-step with your study of Greek. Things probably sound "grammatical" to you, but don't make a lot of sense.

As with medicine, one term can often refer to a number of different things. Type A, B, C ... or the like, so in Grammar. There are often a number of forms that are "symptomatically" the same (eg. aorist), but actually there are many different ways of getting to an aorist - and they broadly fall into two categories. If you want to understand the aorist (for example), you will need to study two things, the usage (symptoms) and the form (cause). A beginners course in Greek will let you do that to some degree.

You are being encouraged by Jonathan and others to not just have an answer to a series of questions that you happen to come across, but rather to learn to understand some of the theory behind what you are seeing and trying to understand in the Greek.

To your question about repetition (broadly speaking - something happening again)...
Greek has three ways of expressing repetition: that is what Jonathan is alluding to when he is asking your all those questions about where to find information.

"Repetition" is something like a symptom, which might come about from three causes: From the dictionary meaning of the word (As I discussed earlier the form with ἀπο- is a clear indication of repetition, but as with medical conditions, not all people give all the indications), from the grammar (your question: "Does the first person singular future mean repetition?" - Jonathan is suggesting that if you know some basic grammar, it will be clear whether person, number or tense can carry the meaning of "repetition"), or from the context (This is basically what Barry is talking about, and me too a bit in response to him.)

You can look in a dictionary to find the answer to the whether the word always means repetition or not (but you have seen clearly for yourself already, and Jonathan helping you has made it clear that it doesn't). As to whether the grammar shows you that, you will have to understand more grammar, that is where everyone says you are lacking - the weak link in your chain. As to whether context tells you that, it is clear from your posts that you have a good understanding of the context.

Parsing (look that up online to understand it) is useful because it breaks our understanding into two parts - the grammatical and the dictionary. A beginning grammar will teach you to parse.

For this word which we have spent so much time on:
  • καταστήσω is first person singular future active of καθιστάναι (Dictionary form καθίστημι)
That's great now you know where to look in the grammar, and where to look in the dictionary to find the answers to your questions. You will also need to consider the context that it is found in. When you can put all those three things together, you will be able to make an reasonable choice as to whether the verb contains the meaning of repetition.

Your questions are great. People (especially Jonathan) are encouraging you to get enough knowledge of grammar to be able to formulate them more clearly and to be able to understand them when you find an answer.
0 x
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Mike Burke
Posts: 72
Joined: February 7th, 2014, 8:07 am

Re: ἐς φῶς σὸν

Post by Mike Burke » March 21st, 2014, 1:58 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:You can look in a dictionary to find the answer to the whether the word always means repetition or not (but you have seen clearly for yourself already, and Jonathan helping you has made it clear that it doesn't). As to whether the grammar shows you that, you will have to understand more grammar, that is where everyone says you are lacking - the weak link in your chain. As to whether context tells you that, it is clear from your posts that you have a good understanding of the context.
Thank you.
Barry Hofstetter wrote:I never said nor implied that it has the idea of repetition. "Restore" or "bring back" does not necessarily imply repetition, even in English
:shock:

Why would you say that?

"Bring back" would certainly seem to imply repetition.

And "Restore"?
re·store
verb
[with object]

1 Bring back (a previous right, practice, custom, or situation); reinstate: 'the government restored confidence in the housing market'
More example sentencesSynonyms

1.1 Return (someone or something) to a former condition, place, or position: 'the effort to restore him to office isn’t working'
More example sentences

1.2 Repair or renovate (a building, work of art, vehicle, etc.) so as to return it to its original condition: 'the building has been lovingly restored'
More example sentencesSynonyms

1.3 Give (something previously stolen, taken away, or lost) back to the original owner or recipient: 'the government will restore land and property to those who lost it through confiscation'
More example sentencesSynonyms
Oxford Dictionary of American English
0 x

Eeli Kaikkonen
Posts: 413
Joined: June 2nd, 2011, 7:49 am
Location: Finland
Contact:

Re: ἐς φῶς σὸν

Post by Eeli Kaikkonen » March 21st, 2014, 3:37 am

Mike Burke wrote:
Does καθίστημι indicate repetition in the 1st person future active indicative singular form?
You spoke about an "inherent meaning" of a word. As was said, there's no such thing. But still you are right about the situation when we think just about a word, without context, and come up with one idea. However, in (cognitive) linguistics it's called "prototypical meaning". See for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prototype_theory.

Prototypes don't solve your problem. We have instances of words without context only in metadiscussion, i.e. in this kind of discussion about words or in dictionaries. Every normal use of a word has a context. And the context rules the word there. If your goal is to think about and talk about a word it's nice to know the prototypical meaning of it. But if your goal is to find out what a word means in some text (Biblical or otherwise) you have to forget theorizing about that word and find out what it means there. You can use good dictionaries, list all possible meanings from them and choose one which fits best in the context. This "choosing the best" is of course the difficult step. You have to be honest, without theological or other theoretical bias, understanding the world (historical world and to some degree inner world) of the writer. No interpreter is faultless here, but at least we have to try.

Back to your question. I would answer "no". In any given real text (something else than a dictionary or in metadiscussion) it means something specific in the context. What it means depends on context. You can't decide that based on the prototypical meaning or the most usual or frequent meaning of that word. In this case you can't say that because the LSJ dictionary says "especially" the word means that "especially" thing. It may be the most usual/frequent and the prototypical meaning of that word, but it's not what the word means in certain text which we were talking about (and which I already forgot).

And now I have a bold proposition. If someone feels he's low on resources, why waste them on studying Greek? The original language doesn't help us much in such situations. The cold, unbearable truth is that we have tons of good translations and they already say everything necessary. Just rise above individual words and sentences and find the message. That's what we have to do with the Greek text, too. Many people do word studies to find "gold nuggets" from the text. It's a good thing to do, but you can miss the golden mountain looking for nuggets. There's nothing really important in the Greek text which can't be communicated in translations.
0 x

Locked