ἐς φῶς σὸν

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Re: ἐς φῶς σὸν

Postby Eeli Kaikkonen » March 21st, 2014, 5:39 am

Eeli Kaikkonen wrote:
Mike Burke wrote:
Does καθίστημι indicate repetition in the 1st person future active indicative singular form?


Back to your question. I would answer "no". (...) In this case you can't say that because the LSJ dictionary says "especially" the word means that "especially" thing.


I'll continue a bit. BDAG/BAGD, Louw-Nida and Danker (The Concise..) are representatives of good NT Greek dictionaries. If you follow them, it's difficult to go wrong. There's always place for enhancements, but basically, if a meaning is not found in them, then the word doesn't have that meaning in the New Testament. It may have, but you have to be familiar with high level exegesis, lexicology, linguistics etc. and be able to find occurrences of that word from all the Koine literature and read the literature to be able to argue that. LSJ is a good help, but it's not written for detailed NT study. For the record here are the possible definitions of καθίστημι from two sources:

Danker: 1. 'bring down to a location', conduct - 2. 'put into a position of responsibility', appoint - 3. 'cause to become', make.
Louw-Nida: (37.104) to assign to someone a position of authority over others - 'to put in charge of, to appoint, to designate'. (13.9) to cause a state to be - 'to cause to be, to make to be, to make, to result in, to bring upon, to bring about.'

No idea of repetition or restoration of a previous state. It's possible that the word has had that restoration meaning in earlier times but not anymore in the NT times. Or it just doesn't have it in the NT. Maybe LSJ gives examples of Koine usage. But for the NT words and the meanings in the NT the above mentioned dictionaries are more authoritative.
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Re: Unfamiliar subjects - Medicine and Grammar

Postby Jonathan Robie » March 21st, 2014, 6:57 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Mike Burke wrote:Could you please just answer my question and stop playing games? ...

Does καθίστημι indicate repetition in the 1st person future active indicative singular form?

Nobody is playing games. You need to know more of the basics before you can understand the answers to the questions you are trying to ask.


Precisely.

You are a smart guy, there are lots of smart people here on B-Greek. But smart doesn't teach you a language, and the kind of logical approach you are trying to apply doesn't get you any closer to answering your questions. You will have to learn to crawl before you can walk, you will have to learn how to walk before you can run. The time commitment you need is something like 30 minutes / day of focused attention, most days, on a regular basis. Start with very simple texts like the Gospel of John and 1 John. Read out of a New Testament Greek grammar one day, read out of the New Testament the next day, or split up your time.

If you want to do that, we can answer your questions as you go. But start learning systematically so you can build a foundation for understanding. Start as a beginner, and we can help you. But the way we're doing this isn't working, you are getting frustrated, the people who are trying to answer your questions are getting frustrated, simple answers to simple questions don't work because you do not have the background to understand them.

I'm very sorry that you are having such a rough time in life, and that might limit what you can do right now. Not everyone learns New Testament Greek, the vast majority of people do not. But those that do learn Greek put time and effort into systematically learning the language.

Eeli Kaikkonen wrote:And now I have a bold proposition. If someone feels he's low on resources, why waste them on studying Greek? The original language doesn't help us much in such situations. The cold, unbearable truth is that we have tons of good translations and they already say everything necessary. Just rise above individual words and sentences and find the message. That's what we have to do with the Greek text, too. Many people do word studies to find "gold nuggets" from the text. It's a good thing to do, but you can miss the golden mountain looking for nuggets. There's nothing really important in the Greek text which can't be communicated in translations.


I agree with that. If you really want to best understand the text, and you don't have the time and energy to learn the language, translations are the way to go. Don't try to understand the Greek text without first learning the Greek language.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Re: ἐς φῶς σὸν

Postby Shirley Rollinson » March 21st, 2014, 3:58 pm

Mike Burke wrote:
Jonathan Robie wrote: 1. What does the lexicon say about the meaning of the verb. I gave you that definition earlier in the thread, did it say anything about repetition?

If you mean the link you gave me on the other thread, it did say something about repetition (but I'm not sure I understand what it said, and that's why I started this thread.)

I'll underline what I found confusing in the source you cited.

2. bring down to a place, τούς μ’ ἐκέλευσα Πύλονδε καταστῆσαι Od.13.274: generally, bring, κ. τινὰ ἐς Νάξον Hdt.1.64, cf. Th.4.78; esp. bring back, πάλιν αὐτὸν κ. ἐς τὸ τεῖχος σῶν καὶ ὑγιᾶ Id.3.34; κ. τοὺς Ἕλληνας εἰς Ἰωνίαν πάλιν X.An.1.4.13; without πάλιν, replace, restore, ἐς φῶς σὸν κ. βίον E.Alc.362; ἃς (sc. τὰς κόρας) οὐδ’ ὁ Μελάμπους . . καταστήσειεν ἄν cure their squint, Alex.112.5; ἰκτεριῶντας κ. Dsc.4.1; τὸ σῶμα restore the general health, Hp.Mul. 2.133:—Med., κατεστήσαντο (v.l. for κατεκτήσαντο) εὐδαιμονίαν Isoc. 4.62:—Pass., οὐκ ἂν ἀντὶ πόνων χάρις καθίσταιτο would be returned, Th. 4.86.

http://stephanus.tlg.uci.edu/lsj/#eid=53373&context=lsj&action=from-search

If "esp." means especially, the definition given here would seem to imply that the word itself contains the idea of repetition (and that's what I understood Barry and Stephen to be saying.)

Is that correct?

- - - snip snip - - -



OK - here is probably the source of the confusion -
Look at the quotation you have given above :
esp. bring back, πάλιν αὐτὸν κ. ἐς τὸ τεῖχος σῶν καὶ ὑγιᾶ Id.3.34; κ. τοὺς Ἕλληνας εἰς Ἰωνίαν πάλιν X.An.1.4.13;
without πάλιν, replace, restore, ἐς φῶς σὸν κ. βίον

Yes, esp. is short for "especially" - but then what follows ? - πάλιν - which means "again" and so brings in the sense of repetition (I can't repeat something until I have done it at least once before).
Then there are a couple of examples, using πάλιν.

Then follows the example which gave you a problem - but NOTE - it does not have πάλιν : (no πάλιν - no "again", so no necessity to imply repetition)
without πάλιν, replace, restore, ἐς φῶς σὸν κ. βίον
and, BTW, the example as given shows you that σὸν describes (goes with) βίον = "thy (your, singular) life"

So what the quote is saying is that, if πάλιν is used with the verb, there may be a sense of "bring back", BUT without πάλιν the sense is nearer "replace" or "restore". (and I can "replace" a book just once, not necessarily repeatedly, if, for example, it has fallen off a shelf or someone else has moved it from its place)

BTW if you try the page for καθίστημι at LaParola you will get a nice range of meanings, and links to all the examples of this verb in the GNT.
[url]http://www.laparola.net/greco/parola.php?p=καθίστημι[/url]

I hope this helps to "restore" or "put down in place" (καθίστημι) some clarity,
Shirley Rollinson
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Re: ἐς φῶς σὸν

Postby Mike Burke » March 21st, 2014, 5:04 pm

Eeli Kaikkonen wrote:
Eeli Kaikkonen wrote:
Mike Burke wrote:
Does καθίστημι indicate repetition in the 1st person future active indicative singular form?


Back to your question. I would answer "no". (...) In this case you can't say that because the LSJ dictionary says "especially" the word means that "especially" thing.


I'll continue a bit. BDAG/BAGD, Louw-Nida and Danker (The Concise..) are representatives of good NT Greek dictionaries. If you follow them, it's difficult to go wrong. There's always place for enhancements, but basically, if a meaning is not found in them, then the word doesn't have that meaning in the New Testament. It may have, but you have to be familiar with high level exegesis, lexicology, linguistics etc. and be able to find occurrences of that word from all the Koine literature and read the literature to be able to argue that. LSJ is a good help, but it's not written for detailed NT study. For the record here are the possible definitions of καθίστημι from two sources:

Danker: 1. 'bring down to a location', conduct - 2. 'put into a position of responsibility', appoint - 3. 'cause to become', make.
Louw-Nida: (37.104) to assign to someone a position of authority over others - 'to put in charge of, to appoint, to designate'. (13.9) to cause a state to be - 'to cause to be, to make to be, to make, to result in, to bring upon, to bring about.'

No idea of repetition or restoration of a previous state. It's possible that the word has had that restoration meaning in earlier times but not anymore in the NT times. Or it just doesn't have it in the NT. Maybe LSJ gives examples of Koine usage. But for the NT words and the meanings in the NT the above mentioned dictionaries are more authoritative.

Thank you.

Shirley Rollinson wrote:OK - here is probably the source of the confusion -
Look at the quotation you have given above :
esp. bring back, πάλιν αὐτὸν κ. ἐς τὸ τεῖχος σῶν καὶ ὑγιᾶ Id.3.34; κ. τοὺς Ἕλληνας εἰς Ἰωνίαν πάλιν X.An.1.4.13;
without πάλιν, replace, restore, ἐς φῶς σὸν κ. βίον

Yes, that's it.

And you've clarified the first part.
Yes, esp. is short for "especially" - but then what follows ? - πάλιν - which means "again" and so brings in the sense of repetition (I can't repeat something until I have done it at least once before).
Then there are a couple of examples, using πάλιν...So what the quote is saying is that, if πάλιν is used with the verb, there may be a sense of "bring back"...

Thank you.

But I can't say I understand the second part any better.
without πάλιν, replace, restore, ἐς φῶς σὸν κ. βίον

You say...
...what the quote is saying is that, if πάλιν is used with the verb, there may be a sense of "bring back", BUT without πάλιν the sense is nearer "replace" or "restore". (and I can "replace" a book just once, not necessarily repeatedly, if, for example, it has fallen off a shelf or someone else has moved it from its place)

But I don't get the distinction you're trying to make in the second part of that sentence.

You (or someone else) would have had to put the book in place to begin with, so if you pick it up and put it back in it's place after it's fallen or been removed, isn't that a repetition?

And why couldn't you do it more than once?

It seems to me that a book can be restored to it's original position on a bookshelf as many times as it's removed (and each time would be a repetition of it's original placement on that bookshelf.)

So I still have trouble understanding what LSJ means by "without πάλιν, replace, restore, ἐς φῶς σὸν κ. βίον."

But I thank you for trying to help.

P.S. I think I may have missed something you were trying to bring out here.
BTW, the example as given shows you that σὸν describes (goes with) βίον = "thy (your, singular) life"

What were you trying to bring out?
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Re: Unfamiliar subjects - Medicine and Grammar

Postby Mike Burke » March 21st, 2014, 5:54 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:Read out of a New Testament Greek grammar one day, read out of the New Testament the next day, or split up your time.

Is this any good?

Basics of Biblical Greek Grammar, by William D. Mounce

P.S. I hope it is, because I just ordered a used copy of this book (and CD) for eighteen dollars and some change (with shipping and handling), and that's more than we can really afford right now.
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Re: ἐς φῶς σὸν

Postby Stephen Carlson » March 21st, 2014, 7:10 pm

Mounce is a popular textbook in seminaries.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D. (Duke, New Testament)
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Re: ἐς φῶς σὸν

Postby Mike Burke » March 21st, 2014, 7:25 pm

Stephen Carlson wrote:Mounce is a popular textbook in seminaries.

Thank you.

Dr. Rollinson's online textbook looks like it could be very helpful, and anyone able to access it online owe her a debt of gratitude for making it available free of charge (as do her students), but I think I'll need that CD to get the Koine pronunciation of Zeta.

Saying it's pronunced "adze" makes no sense to me, but then I'm still trying to roll my r's properly when I pronunce certain Spanish words (and I took Spanish as an ellective, and heard them rolled properly in class.)
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Re: ἐς φῶς σὸν

Postby Wes Wood » March 21st, 2014, 8:15 pm

When you ordered Mounce, did you get the workbook also? As an independent learner, I found it helpful. There is also easy access to the key to the workbook exercises online. As long as you write your answers on paper rather than in the workbook, you can always go back through the exercises as a review. Just be sure you have a good grasp on the materials in each chapter before doing the exercises. I treated them like a test, and it worked well for me. I wish you well in your studies.
"We cannot teach people anything; we can only help them discover it within themselves."
-Galileo Galilei
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Re: ἐς φῶς σὸν

Postby Mike Burke » March 21st, 2014, 10:54 pm

Wes Wood wrote:When you ordered Mounce, did you get the workbook also? As an independent learner, I found it helpful. There is also easy access to the key to the workbook exercises online. As long as you write your answers on paper rather than in the workbook, you can always go back through the exercises as a review. Just be sure you have a good grasp on the materials in each chapter before doing the exercises. I treated them like a test, and it worked well for me. I wish you well in your studies.

Thank you.

I found it on Amazon, and when I saw "available used from $14.95," and I saw it came with a CD, I ordered it.

I didn't see anything about a workbook though (and, being used, I kinda doubt it will come with one.)

So is Eeli Kaikkonen the only one here who doesn't think that the word καταστήσω contains any idea "of repetition or restoration of a previous state"?


Dr. Rollinson,

You cleared up one thing for me when you wrote:
Shirley Rollinson wrote:Yes, esp. is short for "especially" - but then what follows ? - πάλιν - which means "again" and so brings in the sense of repetition (I can't repeat something until I have done it at least once before).
Then there are a couple of examples, using πάλιν...So what the quote is saying is that, if πάλιν is used with the verb, there may be a sense of "bring back"...

Thank you.

But I still don't understand what the LSJ means here:
without πάλιν, replace, restore, ἐς φῶς σὸν κ. βίον


Nor do I understand what you meant when you said this:
Shirley Rollinson wrote:...what the quote is saying is that, if πάλιν is used with the verb, there may be a sense of "bring back", BUT without πάλιν the sense is nearer "replace" or "restore". (and I can "replace" a book just once, not necessarily repeatedly, if, for example, it has fallen off a shelf or someone else has moved it from its place)


As an English speaker, I don't get the distinction you're trying to make between "bring back," and "replace" or "restore."

To "replace" a book taken from a bookshelf (or to "restore" it to it's previous place on that bookshelf) is to "put it back" where it came from, is it not?

Also, you (or someone else) would have had to put the book in it's place on the shelf to begin with, so if you pick it up and put it back after it's fallen or been removed, isn't that a repetition?

A "re-placing" of that book?


And why couldn't you do it more than once?

It seems to me that a book can be restored to it's original position on a bookshelf as many times as it's removed (and each time would be a repetition of it's original placement on that bookshelf.)

I trust you see where you lost me here, and why I still have trouble deciphering:
without πάλιν, replace, restore, ἐς φῶς σὸν κ. βίον.


Finally, were you trying to point out something important (context wise) here?
Shirley Rollinson wrote:BTW, the example as given shows you that σὸν describes (goes with) βίον = "thy (your, singular) life"

If that helps explain why πάλιν isn't used or needed, I missed your point, and would appreciate it if you could elaborate.

Thank you.
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Re: Contextual meanings in dictionaries

Postby Stephen Hughes » March 21st, 2014, 11:01 pm

With regard to why the verb can mean "replace" or "restore" by itself, that is how dictionaries are strhctured. The first words in an entry are the usual meaning, after the meanings given together with a quote are contextual meanings.

Grammatical repetition - some tenses have it, some don't - usually mean that something happens over and over, eg. "I have been waking up at 6." Lexical repetition often means something is done again just once. "He bought a book, lost it, then replaced it." "Re-bought" the same book. Contextual repetition can be big context - you understand repetition from the overall story, or small context - an adverb tells you there is repetition like πἀλιν "once again", or πάντοτε "on every occasion".
Stephen Hughes
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