give us this day our daily bread

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thomas.hagen
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Re: give us this day our daily bread

Post by thomas.hagen » March 31st, 2017, 7:00 am

Thanks to both Arsenios and Randall Buth for these comments. I was happy to see that my question still created some interest! I tend to agree with Randall.

Arsenios (George) Blaisdell
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Re: give us this day our daily bread

Post by Arsenios (George) Blaisdell » March 31st, 2017, 9:50 pm

Randall wrote: Your post is interesting but it is essentially anachronistic, invoking a meaning that could only come later.
The Greek translation of the Aramaic did indeed come later, and was crafted by the Church Fathers to render it in a way that reflected the meaning Christ intended, I should think... And because Christ was creating a NEW understanding of man on this earth, the meanings of terms are more than the prior content of their non-Christian components. eg Words were coined to craft terms that reflected this new understanding. EPIOUSIOS, a single term, is an adjective reflecting such a new meaning, and especially so in its TON ARTON...TON EPIOUSION, which heavily stresses the epiousion in a way that "daily food" would not...
And you may be misleading yourself with the English gloss 'super-essential'. The Greek word uses and adjectival extension -ι- inside of a rather commonly participle.
Well, then you agree that it is adjectival, and means essentially, according to specificity, some variant of "ABOVE", yes? Which means more than... OUSIOS means essence, yes? Or wealth, so that the conjoining of the two means super-essential, and in the context of the origination of the Christian Faith, where Christ is the Bread of Life, the only possible super-essential bread would be Christ Who is indeed super-essential, being God, Who is the Creator of Essence...
The reason for creating what may have been a neologism has also received discussion. I tend to think that it corresponds to an underlying Hebrew that could not maintain a clear meaning if translated literally. Hence the neologism "comingly bread," preserved by both Matthew and Luke. The Hebrew את-לחם חוקנו תן לנו היום "(approx.: the bread of our right/portion-give us today" is one frequent suggestion for the background that I find satisfying, despite uncertainties.
Whatever the Hebrew may affirm, the meaning is to be discerned from its Greek rendering according to early Christian Ekklesiastical understanding, because that is its matrix of written origination and transmission... This is a crucial hermaneutic of Biblical translation...

Arsenios

Arsenios (George) Blaisdell
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Re: give us this day our daily bread

Post by Arsenios (George) Blaisdell » March 31st, 2017, 9:53 pm

Thomas wrote:Thanks to both Arsenios and Randall Buth for these comments. I was happy to see that my question still created some interest! I tend to agree with Randall.
Glad to see you are still around to benefit!

A.

Jonathan Robie
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Re: give us this day our daily bread

Post by Jonathan Robie » April 1st, 2017, 2:46 pm

Arsenios wrote:
March 31st, 2017, 9:50 pm
The Greek translation of the Aramaic did indeed come later, and was crafted by the Church Fathers to render it in a way that reflected the meaning Christ intended, I should think... And because Christ was creating a NEW understanding of man on this earth, the meanings of terms are more than the prior content of their non-Christian components. eg Words were coined to craft terms that reflected this new understanding. EPIOUSIOS, a single term, is an adjective reflecting such a new meaning, and especially so in its TON ARTON...TON EPIOUSION, which heavily stresses the epiousion in a way that "daily food" would not...
You seem to be appealing to writings of the early church that use this term. Which ones? Can you give us the money quote in Greek?

When do you say this word took on this meaning? In whose writings?
Well, then you agree that it is adjectival, and means essentially, according to specificity, some variant of "ABOVE", yes? Which means more than... OUSIOS means essence, yes? Or wealth, so that the conjoining of the two means super-essential, and in the context of the origination of the Christian Faith, where Christ is the Bread of Life, the only possible super-essential bread would be Christ Who is indeed super-essential, being God, Who is the Creator of Essence...
I'm a little careful with etymology and roots as a way of determining what it meant to them then. Do you have some evidence from that time or the writings of, say, the Apostolic fathers to indicate that they understood it that way? Even then, it's possible that this is a meaning that evolved after the Gospel was written. I wonder what evidence we have of its meaning before the later writings of the Apostolic fathers and later writings.
Randall Buth wrote:The reason for creating what may have been a neologism has also received discussion. I tend to think that it corresponds to an underlying Hebrew that could not maintain a clear meaning if translated literally. Hence the neologism "comingly bread," preserved by both Matthew and Luke. The Hebrew את-לחם חוקנו תן לנו היום "(approx.: the bread of our right/portion-give us today" is one frequent suggestion for the background that I find satisfying, despite uncertainties.
Where should I look for such discussion?
Arsenius wrote:Whatever the Hebrew may affirm, the meaning is to be discerned from its Greek rendering according to early Christian Ekklesiastical understanding, because that is its matrix of written origination and transmission... This is a crucial hermaneutic of Biblical translation...
Obviously, different people here will have different approaches to hermeneutics, and that's OK. I would find quotes from the early church helpful, especially from the Apostolic Fathers and other really early text, can you find a few quotes for us to look at?
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Arsenios (George) Blaisdell
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Re: give us this day our daily bread

Post by Arsenios (George) Blaisdell » April 1st, 2017, 5:14 pm

Jonathan, you rotten dog! You have certainly not lost your wonderful art of asking really good dirty-dog questions! And here I was, settling into my easy chair of lazy and undefended chattering, and along YOU come, and start asking your pesky little queries, dropping little items like: "Can you give us a 'money quote' to show us your meaning?" I will patiently await my turn to return your 'kindness'... :)

So no, not off the top of my head - I am a practicing Orthodox Christian now for some 15 years, and my report to you is simply from that phronema of understanding. A Greek friend of mine decries the translation of the Lord's Prayer from Koine to Demotic as saying "Give us a loaf of bread every day" or some such...

But wait a second, I will see if I can chase something up without having to research Chrysostom!

Thanks for your patience...

I thought I was headed for the crow-pie bakery, finding 3 of the Fathers agreeing with everyone but me, but one of them wrote there are many levels of understanding, and one of these is "needed-daily" bread - eg enough food for the day, not more. Then the cavalry arrived with St. Maximos the Confessor writing:

"But one who prays for the superessential bread,...receives it only as he is able to receive it. For the Bread of Life, out of His love for men, gives Himself to all who ask Him, but not in the same manner to everyone..."

So that in my zeal, I had thought to eliminate "daily bread", when the matter is instead not so much a matter of mis-translation but more that of UNDER-translation... BOTH meanings are included, and doubtless more besides... So my bad...

Not the first time either! I enjoy too much most any over-statement of matters...

Thanks for the question, you rotten child!

YOUR turn is coming, rest assured! :)

Arsenios

RandallButh
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Re: give us this day our daily bread

Post by RandallButh » April 2nd, 2017, 2:27 am

Nice: "the superessential bread"
so Maximos wrote in English. :)

and PS: "The Greek translation of the Aramaic did indeed come later"
Actually, my quote of the background was Hebrew.
It is NT modern secondary lit where the prayer is often assumed to be Aramaic and low Hebrew ignored (mishnaic Hebrew-- a colloquial language widely ignored or misunderstood in NT secondary lit).

For a study in the complexity of language use in the Greek gospels, I recommend a close reading of Buth
The Language Background and Literary Function of the Cry from the Cross Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34
https://www.biblicallanguagecenter.com/ ... cry-cross/
maybe the following would be helpful for understanding first century data on sociolinguistics for NT:
https://www.biblicallanguagecenter.com/hebraisti/
https://www.biblicallanguagecenter.com/ ... -writings/
Finally, as this is Easter season, the article on the cry from the cross is timely for the Forum. But it goes far beyond a simple discussion of Greek.

Brett Hancock
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Re: give us this day our daily bread

Post by Brett Hancock » April 2nd, 2017, 5:54 pm

I gotta agree with Arsenios, partly based on my view of the greek word επιουσιον and also based on what Jesus taught. I see επι placed as a prefix quite often "super charging" the word, i.e. making it more emphatic. The accusative form here "ουσιον" seems to be from the participle for ειμι as is used in the Nicene Creed ὁμοούσιον τῷ Πατρί.
Also at the burning bush, the "I AM" was a participle for this verb, and many references in John where Jesus refers to himself in this participle form as the great I AM.

In John 6 we see Jesus freaking the Jews out that all of their lives have been taught what had been handed down from Moses, and that from Genesis. They knew that idolatry was instituted way before Moses, where people began to drink blood and eat flesh sacrificed to idols to venerate demons, as Paul said in 1 Corinthians 8 "the table of demons", and that it was associated with what we see the Jewish Christian leaders emphasize with the new "uncircumcised" gentile Christians, formerly idols worshippers and eaters of food sacrificed to idols; we see this in Acts 15. That was the laws given to Noah, which were not to drink blood or have flesh (meat) sacrificed to idols or strangled. Prior to the time of Noah, we see in Genesis, that the flesh of animals was not allowed, but men ate plants and fruits etc.

So in John 6, these devout Jews knew what Jesus was saying was radical. "Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you will have NO LIFE in you". I grew up in various Protestant denominations the first 45 years of my life, and I am not Catholic now, but studying the Ante Nicene Fathers, I see they took this to be fairly literal.

Jesus said there in John 6 that he urges us, yeah even warns us, to not work for the food that perishes, but for the true manna from heaven, which is the flesh of the Son of Man, given for the world so that they may have life... eternal life, as in the spirit that is holy sent from God through His Son. This is very hard for Protestants, just like those Jews who turned back and stopped following Jesus, to believe. At the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, which became the Tree of Disobedience, Satan helped Eve renegotiate what God said, so that she wouldn't just take the plain meaning, and she was deceived. The work of Christ at the Tree of Obedience, where he died as the Passover Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world, we see the Roman centurion puncture his side, and "streams of living water flowed from his side"... water and blood mingled, much like his first miracle where he told his mother "woman, why do you involve me, my time has not yet come".

Jesus in the Lord's prayer, I think very clearly is saying for us to pray for the manna from heaven daily to feed us, so that we may have life to the full, and to have it more abundantly, the spirit of God poured out from heaven by Jesus, our propitiation, our High Priest in the order of Mechelzedek, the seed of Abraham and King David according to the promises given them and so called in Daniel, Ezekiel and elsewhere "the Son of Man", the lamb led to the slaughter and yet did not open his mouth by Isaiah, the Word that became flesh and dwelt among us by John, the Son of God begotten of the Father in Psalm 2:7. And so having that begotten spirit that is holy, is the only one able to give us God's spirit, as is the will of the Father "that all would honor the son as they honor the Father" said Jesus in John 5, the intercessor between the Father and us human beings made in God's image, being like God given free will to choose good or evil as our ancestors Adam and Eve chose on our behalf, are now called to repent and turn and do the will of God who Jesus said in Matthew 7:21 are the only ones who will enter His Kingdom.

What I would disagree with Catholics in this respect is the whole Transubstantiation thing. Neither do they give anything more than lip service to doing what Jesus taught in the gospels. Protestants neither seem to think doing what Jesus taught has any bearing in Salvation, yet Jesus plainly said it is the means to obtain life. Disobedience in the beginning by distrusting (disbelieving) God that led to disobedience, now is overturned through Christ, who calls us to believe and obey.

With respect to the manna from heaven, I see Justin Martyr in First Apology CH 60 I think it is or there abouts, where the greek he uses is rightfully translated not as Transubstantiation but TransMUTATION... where there is a change he says, but he does not say when that change happens or any details of it literally, immediately turning to blood and flesh. Now what I believe is that at the last trumpet that Paul described in his 1 Corinthians 15 message, that this is when that tranfiguration will take place, where the Groom comes to be joined as One with his bride, the virgin bride, which 1 John 3:1-2 speaks of the 2nd coming, and vs 3 is a warning that only those who PURIFY THEMSELVES becoming like virgins again, and the early church pointing to the NT passages urging self control, temperance, soberness, and living as Justin said "comfortably to right reason", that is to say to the precepts of the Logos. Paul said that those who take of it in an unworthy manner bring judgment upon themselves. The big deception is that people are told they just need to confess, and little concern about making every effort to not sin. 1 Peter 4:1-7 says take on the attitude to suffer instead of pleasure like Jesus did, because whoever suffers is done with sin Peter said. 1 John 3 says whoever does what is righteous, he himself is righteous just like Jesus did and therefore was. Hebrews 10:26 says anyone recklessly, willingly continuing in sin, there is no sacrifice of Christ, the propitiation of sin left for that person, but only a fearful expectation of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

May God helps us to wake up and take the daily bread from heaven living the new life, sharing in the sufferings of Christ (Romans 8:17) where Paul said if we do this, we will share in his glory.

Amen

Brett Hancock
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Re: give us this day our daily bread

Post by Brett Hancock » April 2nd, 2017, 5:58 pm

Ignatius in his Epistle to the Ephesians calls the Eucharist the "medicine of immortality". Keep in mind Ignatius was installed as the third επισκοπος over the church in Antioch by Peter, the 2nd Επισκοπος (overseer/bishop from latin), late first century and very early 2nd. He was a student of John and mostly like of Peter and other apostles. He was a friend of Polycarp, and student of John and Επισκοπος of Smyrna, having written a letter to him on his way to his martyrdom to encourage him.

Jonathan Robie
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Re: give us this day our daily bread

Post by Jonathan Robie » April 3rd, 2017, 6:12 am

Let me put a moderator's hat on here: B-Greek is not a place to discuss the differing theologies among groups of Christians or to share our own conclusions in sorting through theology. Our focus is on Greek and how we can legitimately understand the Greek text and language. A theology of the Eucharist should build on the meaning of the biblical texts, it should not be the basis for understanding basic word meanings. You can disagree with that privately, but on B-Greek, we really don't allow that approach to establishing word meanings.

And B-Greek is really not a place for speculating by folk etymology, using intuition of modern English speakers to fix the meaning of ancient words. A pineapple is not an apple that grows on pine trees, so our intuition based on possible meanings of parts of words is suspect - especially with words like ἐπί, οὐσία, εἶναι, etc.

Perhaps someone could start by summarizing BDAG's discussion of the word, which outlines quite a few possible meanings. And for those who have quotes from the early church explaining the meaning of this word, could you please provide them in Greek?
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Jonathan Robie
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Re: give us this day our daily bread

Post by Jonathan Robie » April 3rd, 2017, 9:03 am

Arsenios wrote:
April 1st, 2017, 5:14 pm
Jonathan, you rotten dog! You have certainly not lost your wonderful art of asking really good dirty-dog questions! And here I was, settling into my easy chair of lazy and undefended chattering, and along YOU come, and start asking your pesky little queries, dropping little items like: "Can you give us a 'money quote' to show us your meaning?" I will patiently await my turn to return your 'kindness'... :)

So no, not off the top of my head - I am a practicing Orthodox Christian now for some 15 years, and my report to you is simply from that phronema of understanding. A Greek friend of mine decries the translation of the Lord's Prayer from Koine to Demotic as saying "Give us a loaf of bread every day" or some such...

But wait a second, I will see if I can chase something up without having to research Chrysostom!
I love the spirit in which you phrased this ;=>

Here's how I see it: "In God we trust. All others bring data."

B-Greek, of course, has a wide variety of faith stances - and some who claim no faith. If a Bible believing Mennonite like me is going to engage fruitfully with an Orthodox Christian, other Christians across the faith spectrum, a few linguists who claim no faith, etc. then we have to do that at the level of data and careful interpretation of the text, looking at the bumps and wrinkles of the Greek.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

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