give us this day our daily bread

The forum for those who still struggle with morphology, syntax, and idiom, or who wish to discuss basic questions about the meaning of Greek texts, syntax, or words.
Forum rules
This is not a place for students to ask for the answers to their homework assignments. Users who do that may be banned.
Arsenios (George) Blaisdell
Posts: 16
Joined: September 12th, 2011, 10:08 am

Re: give us this day our daily bread

Post by Arsenios (George) Blaisdell » April 4th, 2017, 12:07 am

Jonathan wrote: I love the spirit in which you phrased this ;=>
Thank-you - It is a fun spirit...
Here's how I see it: "In God we trust. All others bring data."
So I did, and you have so far neither asked for more not responded to what I provided...
So I am at a loss on how to assess the efficacy of my provision to you of your request...
B-Greek, of course, has a wide variety of faith stances - and some who claim no faith. If a Bible believing Mennonite like me is going to engage fruitfully with an Orthodox Christian, other Christians across the faith spectrum, a few linguists who claim no faith, etc. then we have to do that at the level of data and careful interpretation of the text, looking at the bumps and wrinkles of the Greek.
I do not think denominational stance should determine one's understanding of the Bible, but the fact that the early Church originated and transmitted it, and gave us a thousand years of commentary on its meaning, so that such a witness can hardly be discarded out of hand... It is a Holy Work originating from the practicing Holy Community that the Church IS for the first thousand years of a mostly undivided Church...

As a consequence of these facts, is that IF one desires to get the original intended meaning, there is no better source than the history of commentary the worshiping Church that originated the particular text which we are seeking to understand and translate...

It is not, you see, a matter of the originating source of the texts being on an equal footing with those coming later facing the text in worshiping communities that did NOT originate it...

This hermaneutic is ignored at great risk, and in the EOC's understanding, a fatal risk... And it matters not a lick if one has no belief whatsoever, of is one of ANY other Christian Confession - Even the EOC's like me, as I amply demonstrated, need to keep that history of commentary of the EOC clearly in view, which I almost did not...

Jes' sayin'...That SHOULD be starting point, from which if one disagrees, one must prove wrong or at least inadequate...

Arsenios

RandallButh
Posts: 877
Joined: May 13th, 2011, 4:01 am

Re: give us this day our daily bread

Post by RandallButh » April 4th, 2017, 12:31 am

Not much Greek quotation yet.

(At least לחם חוקנו has a source quote for ἐπιούσιος.)

Jonathan Robie
Posts: 3097
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:34 pm
Location: Durham, NC
Contact:

Re: give us this day our daily bread

Post by Jonathan Robie » April 4th, 2017, 8:40 am

Arsenios wrote:
April 4th, 2017, 12:07 am
I do not think denominational stance should determine one's understanding of the Bible, but the fact that the early Church originated and transmitted it, and gave us a thousand years of commentary on its meaning, so that such a witness can hardly be discarded out of hand...
But for understanding the meaning of a Greek word, examples of how that word was used in these writings, and how that understanding developed over time, are what we need.

BDAG gives several different possible derivations for the word, and the evidence for each. There's about one page of material to work through. One of the possibilities it lists is this: ἐπί + οὐσία, hence, for subsistence, needful, necessary for existence. According to BDAG, Origen, Chrysostom, and Jerome understood it this way. This seems to be the derivation you suggest, but BDAG and other sources I have interpret the meaning of this differently than you do. Or is it a substantizing of ἐπὶ τὴν οὖσαν, "for the current day, for today"? Or perhaps "for the following day"? He gives evidence for a handful of different possibilities.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Jonathan Robie
Posts: 3097
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:34 pm
Location: Durham, NC
Contact:

Re: give us this day our daily bread

Post by Jonathan Robie » April 4th, 2017, 8:45 am

Arsenios wrote:
April 4th, 2017, 12:07 am
Here's how I see it: "In God we trust. All others bring data."
So I did, and you have so far neither asked for more not responded to what I provided...
I did, actually. I suggested starting with BDAG or quoting the Greek text for the sources you are looking at. I just provided a little information from BDAG.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Arsenios (George) Blaisdell
Posts: 16
Joined: September 12th, 2011, 10:08 am

Re: give us this day our daily bread

Post by Arsenios (George) Blaisdell » May 7th, 2017, 11:51 pm

Jonathan wrote: Arsenios wrote: ↑
I do not think denominational stance should determine one's understanding of the Bible, but the fact is that the early Church originated and transmitted it, and gave us a thousand years of undivided commentary on its meaning, so that such a witness can hardly be discarded out of hand...


But for understanding the meaning of a Greek word, examples of how that word was used in these writings, and how that understanding developed over time, are what we need.
After Christ, Greek word meanings in the Bible shifted for the Christian Community that gave it to us, for the very simple reason that they were describing something that the non-Christian (prior) Greek world had never imagined, that was given to this Community and held by them in the Mystery of the Faith and therein held by a purified conscience. So that when they used Greek terms, and coined them, they did so by way of describing that which is not seen but is experienced within that Worship Community...
BDAG gives several different possible derivations for the word, and the evidence for each. There's about one page of material to work through. One of the possibilities it lists is this: ἐπί + οὐσία, hence, for subsistence, needful, necessary for existence. According to BDAG, Origen, Chrysostom, and Jerome understood it this way. This seems to be the derivation you suggest, but BDAG and other sources I have interpret the meaning of this differently than you do. Or is it a substantizing of ἐπὶ τὴν οὖσαν, "for the current day, for today"? Or perhaps "for the following day"? He gives evidence for a handful of different possibilities.
Indeed Church Fathers do give the meaning of epiousios artos as "daily minimum for sustenance" or similar such, and this keeps the secret meaning hidden in plain sight... And it took Maximos the Confessor to mention what all knew lay hidden in the term. Were this not a true revelation by Maximos, the Church would have corrected him - It was not tolerant of deviations or additions in Ekklesiastical understandings - And he certainly would not have been canonized... eg - It is a genuine early Church understanding... And there are doubtless other deeper understandings of all the words used in the Bible, whose meanings do not contradict the surface meanings attained by non-Christian Greek derivatives, but are instead referenced BY such understandings TO the new Christian ones now guarded by the Church that originated the Books of the Bible...

The treachery we find in non-Christian derivatives used to translate the Bible Koine Greek is that by doing so we LIMIT our understanding to non-Christian meanings, whereas if we embrace the Church Fathers so as to bring their understandings to bear on various (difficult) texts, we will find a broad spectrum of understandings that are specifically Christian, and generally written in the Greek of the GNT and generally received by the Church... [except Origen, of course, and not entirely even with him.]

It just seems at least to me to be a common sense way of approaching the meaning of the GNT texts, to look to the commentaries of the Community that originated, preserved and passed them on to us for the first thousand years of its Christian history...

Arsenios

Arsenios (George) Blaisdell
Posts: 16
Joined: September 12th, 2011, 10:08 am

Re: give us this day our daily bread

Post by Arsenios (George) Blaisdell » May 8th, 2017, 12:03 am

Randall wrote: Nice: "the superessential bread"
so Maximos wrote in English. :)
Everybody knows that, and that the first Bibles were written in 1611 KJV! :)

So are you familiar with the Orthodox New Testament vol 1 and 2 out of Buena Vista Colorado? The translator, Mother Mary, has included Patristic commentary at the end of each book on many of the more difficult passages, and the result is a translation tht has precision that is expanded and thereby consistent with usually several commentators, but Chrysostom a lot...

He did, btw, write superessential bread in Greek, and the question, of course, you cute little puppy you, is exactly how many meanings does that term carry in the early commentaries... :)

Great comment - Like you, I would not have been able to lay off the shot you took!

Nice to "see" you again here, Randall!

Arsenios

Barry Hofstetter
Posts: 999
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: give us this day our daily bread

Post by Barry Hofstetter » May 8th, 2017, 10:30 am

Arsenios (George) Blaisdell wrote:
May 7th, 2017, 11:51 pm

After Christ, Greek word meanings in the Bible shifted for the Christian Community that gave it to us, for the very simple reason that they were describing something that the non-Christian (prior) Greek world had never imagined, that was given to this Community and held by them in the Mystery of the Faith and therein held by a purified conscience. So that when they used Greek terms, and coined them, they did so by way of describing that which is not seen but is experienced within that Worship Community...

Indeed Church Fathers do give the meaning of epiousios artos as "daily minimum for sustenance" or similar such, and this keeps the secret meaning hidden in plain sight... And it took Maximos the Confessor to mention what all knew lay hidden in the term. Were this not a true revelation by Maximos, the Church would have corrected him - It was not tolerant of deviations or additions in Ekklesiastical understandings - And he certainly would not have been canonized... eg - It is a genuine early Church understanding... And there are doubtless other deeper understandings of all the words used in the Bible, whose meanings do not contradict the surface meanings attained by non-Christian Greek derivatives, but are instead referenced BY such understandings TO the new Christian ones now guarded by the Church that originated the Books of the Bible...

The treachery we find in non-Christian derivatives used to translate the Bible Koine Greek is that by doing so we LIMIT our understanding to non-Christian meanings, whereas if we embrace the Church Fathers so as to bring their understandings to bear on various (difficult) texts, we will find a broad spectrum of understandings that are specifically Christian, and generally written in the Greek of the GNT and generally received by the Church... [except Origen, of course, and not entirely even with him.]

It just seems at least to me to be a common sense way of approaching the meaning of the GNT texts, to look to the commentaries of the Community that originated, preserved and passed them on to us for the first thousand years of its Christian history...

Arsenios
Whenever someone says "secret meaning" it's time to run and hide. There are no secret meanings in the Greek, no hidden messages. It was written in plain ordinary language for all to be able to comprehend on the purely linguistic level. The spiritual understanding of the text comes not from finding hidden levels of meaning -- that's essentially gnosticism -- but in correctly applying the text to one's daily life and experience. What you have said above is "Theology trumps lexicography," and that, of course, is simply wrong. We start with the language as is and as it would have been received by it's original audience, and work from there.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
ἐγὼ δὲ διδάσκω τε καὶ γράφω ἵνα τὰ ἀξιώτερα μανθάνω

Jonathan Robie
Posts: 3097
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:34 pm
Location: Durham, NC
Contact:

Re: give us this day our daily bread

Post by Jonathan Robie » May 8th, 2017, 10:59 am

I'd like to request that all mention of denominations or denominational stances be left out of this discussion. Let's focus on Greek texts here.

I do think specific things said by various writers in the early church are relevant - specific quotes are more helpful than generalities, especially quotes that include the Greek. But quotes from other texts are also relevant. We don't all have to agree on how to rank the importance of various sources.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest