Matthew 6.8 "before you ask him"

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thomas.hagen
Posts: 24
Joined: August 14th, 2012, 4:22 pm
Location: Livorno, Italy

Re: Matthew 6.8 "before you ask him"

Post by thomas.hagen » August 14th, 2014, 2:16 pm

Thanks again - you have greatly encouraged me.

For any Italian lovers, here is the exact Italian phrase concerning "αἰτῆσαι" in Matthew 6.8: "l'aorista sottolinea che non avviene nemmeno una volta."
Last edited by Stephen Carlson on August 14th, 2014, 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixed typo
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Stirling Bartholomew
Posts: 959
Joined: August 9th, 2012, 4:19 pm

Re: Matthew 6.8 "before you ask him"

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » August 14th, 2014, 3:16 pm

The author in question appears to have contributed to a number of publications. WORLDCAT
55 works in 120 publications in 8 languages and 450 library holdings
Genres: Commentaries Dictionaries
Roles: Editor, Commentator, Translator, Creator, Adapter
Classifications: BS75, 220.5
Evangelo secondo Matteo : testo greco, neovolgata latina, analisi filologica, traduzine italiana

Author: Gianfranco Nolli
Publisher: Città del Vaticano : Libreria editrice vaticana, ©1988.
Also attributed to Gianfranco Nolli
Biblia Sacra : vulgatae editionis iuxta pp. Clementis VIII decretum by Gianfranco Nolli ( Book )
14 editions published in 1955 in 3 languages and held by 91 WorldCat member libraries worldwide
Novum Testamentum Graece et Latine : textus Graecus, cum apparatu critico-exegetico, Vulgata Clementina et Neovulgata ( Book )
8 editions published between 1981 and 2001 in 4 languages and held by 70 WorldCat member libraries worldwide
Cantico dei Cantici by Gianfranco Nolli ( Book )
8 editions published between 1967 and 1968 in Italian and held by 33 WorldCat member libraries worldwide
Biblia sacra : Vulgatae editionis iuxta PP. Clementis VIII. decretum ( Book )
3 editions published in 1955 in Latin and Undetermined and held by 19 WorldCat member libraries worldwide
Civiltà dell'antico Egitto by Gianfranco Nolli ( Book )
5 editions published in 1963 in Italian and Undetermined and held by 18 WorldCat member libraries worldwide
Evangelo secondo Marco : testo greco, neovolgata latina, analisi filologica, traduzione italiana ( Book )
4 editions published between 1978 and 1980 in Italian and Latin and held by 16 WorldCat member libraries worldwide
Lessico biblico by Gianfranco Nolli ( Book )
3 editions published in 1970 in Italian and held by 14 WorldCat member libraries worldwide
Gerusalemme, Santo Sepolcro e Moschea di Omar by Gianfranco Nolli ( Book )
2 editions published in 1983 in Italian and held by 14 WorldCat member libraries worldwide
Biblia Sacra, Vulgate editiones luxta P.P. Clements VIII decretum ( Book )
1 edition published in 1955 in Latin and held by 13 WorldCat member libraries worldwide
Evangelo secondo Giovanni : testo greco, neovolgata latina, analisi filologica, traduzine italiana ( Book )
2 editions published in 1986 in Italian and held by 11 WorldCat member libraries worldwide
Evangelo secondo Luca : testo greco, neovolgata latina, analisi filologica, traduzine italiana by Gianfranco Nolli ( Book )
5 editions published between 1983 and 1993 in Italian and Undetermined and held by 10 WorldCat member libraries worldwide
In defence of the Mansoor-Amarna Collection by Gianfranco Nolli ( Book )
2 editions published in 1986 in English and held by 10 WorldCat member libraries worldwide
Jeruzalem, religieuze monumenten by Gianfranco Nolli ( Book )
1 edition published in 1989 in Dutch and held by 9 WorldCat member libraries worldwide
Bouwgeschiedenis en architectuur van de Heilig Grafkerk en de Koepel van de Rots in Jeruzalem
Evangelo secondo Matteo : testo greco, neovolgata latina, analisi filologica, traduzine italiana ( Book )
4 editions published between 1988 and 1996 in Italian and Multiple languages and held by 8 WorldCat member libraries worldwide
Biblia Sacra; Vulgatae editionis iuxta PP. Clementis VIII decretum nova editio Gianfranco Nolli curante, a. Vaccari S.J. praefante ( Book )
2 editions published in 1955 in Latin and held by 8 WorldCat member libraries worldwide
Biblia sacra Vulgatae editionis : iuxta PP. Clementis VIII decretum ( Book )
2 editions published in 1955 in Latin and Undetermined and held by 7 WorldCat member libraries worldwide
Grabeskirche und Felsendom in Jerusalem by Gianfranco Nolli ( Book )
3 editions published in 1989 in German and held by 7 WorldCat member libraries worldwide
Biblia sacra Vulgatae editionis : iuxta PP. Clementis VIII decretum ( Book )
2 editions published in 1955 in Latin and Undetermined and held by 7 WorldCat member libraries worldwide
Evangelo secondo Marco by Marcus ( Book )
4 editions published between 1978 and 1980 in Italian and Multiple languages and held by 6 WorldCat member libraries worldwide
Biblia sacra Vulgatae editionis : iuxta PP. Clementis VIII decretum ( Book )
2 editions published in 1955 in Latin and Undetermined and held by 6 WorldCat member libraries worldwide
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C. Stirling Bartholomew

Stirling Bartholomew
Posts: 959
Joined: August 9th, 2012, 4:19 pm

Re: Matthew 6.8 "before you ask him"

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » August 14th, 2014, 6:41 pm

Matthew 6.7-8 Προσευχόμενοι δὲ μὴ βατταλογήσητε ὥσπερ οἱ ἐθνικοί, δοκοῦσιν γὰρ ὅτι ἐν τῇ πολυλογίᾳ αὐτῶν εἰσακουσθήσονται· 8μὴ οὖν ὁμοιωθῆτε αὐτοῖς, οἶδεν γὰρ ^ὁ πατὴρ ὑμῶν ὧν χρείαν ἔχετε πρὸ τοῦ ὑμᾶς αἰτῆσαι αὐτόν.
In my reading of this the aorist πρὸ τοῦ ὑμᾶς αἰτῆσαι αὐτόν does not indicate "how many times you should ask" the statement affirms that ὁ πατὴρ οἶδεν ὑμῶν ὧν χρείαν ἔχετε prior to asking. The prohibition is against βατταλογήσητε and πολυλογίᾳ which doesn't appear to be repetition of a single request, rather a superfluous piling up of empty speech. How often you should ask is an inference drawn from the scenario but not specifically addressed in the saying.
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C. Stirling Bartholomew

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Matthew 6.8 "before you ask him"

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 15th, 2014, 10:17 am

Stirling Bartholomew wrote:
Matthew 6.7-8 Προσευχόμενοι δὲ μὴ βατταλογήσητε ὥσπερ οἱ ἐθνικοί, δοκοῦσιν γὰρ ὅτι ἐν τῇ πολυλογίᾳ αὐτῶν εἰσακουσθήσονται· 8μὴ οὖν ὁμοιωθῆτε αὐτοῖς, οἶδεν γὰρ ^ὁ πατὴρ ὑμῶν ὧν χρείαν ἔχετε πρὸ τοῦ ὑμᾶς αἰτῆσαι αὐτόν.
In my reading of this the aorist πρὸ τοῦ ὑμᾶς αἰτῆσαι αὐτόν does not indicate "how many times you should ask" the statement affirms that ὁ πατὴρ οἶδεν ὑμῶν ὧν χρείαν ἔχετε prior to asking. The prohibition is against βατταλογήσητε and πολυλογίᾳ which doesn't appear to be repetition of a single request, rather a superfluous piling up of empty speech. How often you should ask is an inference drawn from the scenario but not specifically addressed in the saying.
Does anyone know of any gentile prayers with an example of what βατταλογήσητε and πολυλογίᾳ could mean?
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Carlson
Posts: 2835
Joined: May 11th, 2011, 10:51 am
Location: Melbourne
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Re: Matthew 6.8 "before you ask him"

Post by Stephen Carlson » August 16th, 2014, 1:59 pm

thomas.hagen wrote:Thanks again - you have greatly encouraged me.

For any Italian lovers, here is the exact Italian phrase concerning "αἰτῆσαι" in Matthew 6.8: "l'aorista sottolinea che non avviene nemmeno una volta."
Even the meaning of the Italian is just as have you've translated, I feel that I got a better sense of what Nolli was up to from his Italian. The key is the word πρό. According to the text, God knows what you need before something (i.e. your asking him) happens, so your asking is something that hasn't happened yet when God knows about it. The meaning of asking is somewhat different between the aorist and present infinitives. The aorist can refer to a complete, single occurrence, while the present could be to some kind of pattern of ongoing behavior that may take a prayer or two before the pattern is established. Nolli holds that the use of aorist means that God knows even before the single occurrence, i.e, it underscores that it hasn't happened yet, not even once. I don't think that Nolli is claiming that the aorist means that the asking should or did not happen, only that God's knowing happens before any such asking does happen.
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Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia

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