Better grasping τε and καὶ

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Jacob Rhoden
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Better grasping τε and καὶ

Post by Jacob Rhoden » October 7th, 2016, 8:18 am

I am getting to the point where my basic understanding of these words seems to need expanding. I know that (as defined by Wallace and others) that "τε ... καὶ" can be a "both x and y" construct, but it seems also "καὶ ... καὶ" can be as well, (i.e. Mark 9:22 καὶ πολλάκις καὶ εἰς πῦρ αὐτὸν ἔβαλεν καὶ εἰς ὕδατα).

However (using Heb 6:2 for the sake of example), It seems I have a lot to learn, why is there a τε here?
διδαχῆς ἐπιθέσεώς τε χειρῶν,
And when I first read the next part (ἀναστάσεώς °τε νεκρῶν καὶ κρίματος αἰωνίου), i saw it by default as the "both x and y" constract, i.e. both of ressurection of the dead and of resurrection of eternal judgement. But all bible translations dont see a "both" construct.

I tried reading Wallace (beyond the basics) on the matter, but it wasn't of much use. Can someone please steer me in the right direction? Thanks!
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Better grasping τε and καὶ

Post by Jonathan Robie » October 7th, 2016, 11:07 am

I think this is a better starting point:

Multifunctionality of δέ, τε, and καί

The Hebrews passage is subtle, I'd like to hear from people better at discourse analysis on the use of particles in this passage.
Hebrews 6:1-3 wrote:Διὸ ἀφέντες τὸν τῆς ἀρχῆς τοῦ Χριστοῦ λόγον ἐπὶ τὴν τελειότητα φερώμεθα,

μὴ πάλιν θεμέλιον καταβαλλόμενοι
μετανοίας ἀπὸ νεκρῶν ἔργων,
καὶ πίστεως ἐπὶ θεόν,
βαπτισμῶν διδαχὴν ἐπιθέσεώς τε χειρῶν,
ἀναστάσεώς τε νεκρῶν καὶ κρίματος αἰωνίου.
καὶ τοῦτο ποιήσομεν ἐάνπερ ἐπιτρέπῃ ὁ θεός.
Anyone want to help interpret the dance of the discourse particles in this passage?
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

S Walch
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Re: Better grasping τε and καὶ

Post by S Walch » October 8th, 2016, 1:27 am

From BDAG (A Greek-English Lexicon of the NT and other Early Christian Literature):
② marker of connection between coordinate nonsequential items
ⓐ used alone, and: τέ thus connects single concepts, parts of clauses, or words (Just., A II, 11, 4; s. Kühner-G. II 241; Schwyzer II 574–76; Denniston 497–503) ἐν ἀγάπῃ πνεύματί τε πραΰτητος 1 Cor 4:21. θεοῦ ῥῆμα δυνάμεις τε μέλλοντος αἰῶνος Hb 6:5. Cp. 9:1. ἔκλασεν ἄρτον ὕδωρ τε προσήνεγκεν AcPl Ha 4, 4; relative clause ἅ τε Ἀριστίων … λέγουσιν Papias (2:4). Participles: συναχθέντες συμβούλιόν τε λαβόντες Mt 28:12; φοβούμενος τὸν θεὸν μαρτυρούμενός τε Ac 10:22; cp. Mt 27:48; Ac 2:33; 20:11; 28:23a; Hb 1:3; 6:4. Infinitives: ἁρπάσαι αὐτὸν ἐκ μέσου αὐτῶν ἄγειν τε Ac 23:10; cp. 11:26; 24:23; 27:21b; Eph 3:19.
ⓑ τὲ … τέ, used as connecter of sentences and parts of sentences that are closely related to each other as … so, not only … but also (Kühner-G. II 243; Schwyzer II 573f; Denniston 503–5; Jos., Ant. 1, 92) μάρτυρα ὧν τε εἶδές με ὧν τε ὀφθήσομαί σοι Ac 26:16 (on the constr. s. ὁράω A1b). ἐάν τε γὰρ ζῶμεν, τῷ κυρίῳ ζῶμεν, ἐάν τε ἀποθνῄσκωμεν, τῷ κυρίῳ ἀποθνῄσκομεν for just as when we live, we live to the Lord, so also when we die, we die to the Lord Ro 14:8a. ἐάν τε οὖν ζῶμεν ἐάν τε ἀποθνῄσκωμεν, τοῦ κυρίου ἐσμέν so, not only if we live, but also if we die (i.e. whether we live or die) we belong to the Lord vs. 8b. Cp. Ac 2:46; 17:4; 26:10. τε γάρ ‘for the fact is that’ is one way of rendering this combination (X., Mem. 1, 1, 3; Just., D. 3, 5; Ath. 2, 4) Ro 1:26; 7:7; Hb 2:11.

I would see the τέ 's in Heb 6:2 as more or less just a stronger καὶ - the subjects of what is being "taught" are more closely related to each other than what's being mentioned prior and after.

As for why τέ is appearing after ἐπιθέσεώς rather than before it (βαπτισμῶν διδαχὴν τε ἐπιθέσεώς χειρῶν), τέ is known as an enclitic particle, and so comes after its "host" (that is, the thing it's connecting). Hence why it also comes after ἀναστάσεώς rather than before it.

If you don't have BDAG, Jacob, I'd certainly recommend it as a purchase :)
I tried reading Wallace (beyond the basics) on the matter, but it wasn't of much use.
:lol: You may find that quite a bit. BDF (A Greek Grammar of the NT and other Early Christian Literature) will be better. Not cheap buy's I know (esp. the Lexicon: over £100 on Amazon UK), but worth the money :)
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Better grasping τε and καὶ

Post by Stephen Hughes » October 8th, 2016, 1:14 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:
Hebrews 6:1-3 wrote:Διὸ ἀφέντες τὸν τῆς ἀρχῆς τοῦ Χριστοῦ λόγον ἐπὶ τὴν τελειότητα φερώμεθα,

μὴ πάλιν θεμέλιον καταβαλλόμενοι
μετανοίας ἀπὸ νεκρῶν ἔργων,
καὶ πίστεως ἐπὶ θεόν,
βαπτισμῶν διδαχὴν ἐπιθέσεώς τε χειρῶν,
ἀναστάσεώς τε νεκρῶν καὶ κρίματος αἰωνίου.
καὶ τοῦτο ποιήσομεν ἐάνπερ ἐπιτρέπῃ ὁ θεός.
Anyone want to help interpret the dance of the discourse particles in this passage?
I think the τοῦτο is the key here. It indicates the change from the the suggestion (φερώμεθα) of what he would like to do to the resolve (ποιήσομεν) that he will do what he suggested. The last καί in this section is between these two sections - φερώμεθα ἐπί τι, ... καὶ τοῦτο ποιήσομεν "Let's move on to something, ... and that we shall do."

The introductory statement ἀφέντες τὸν τῆς ἀρχῆς τοῦ Χριστοῦ λόγον is explained in the section that follows, based on the accusatives. The section is arranged into two sections (let me give them names) - "Beginning with Jesus - 2 things you need to do" (turn from sin and put your faith in God), and "Basics of the Christian Life - 4 things you need to know" (reception into the church, church governance, resurection and judgement): life and doctrine.

There is no stated parallel for μὴ πάλιν θεμέλιον καταβαλλόμενοι, for the διδαχήν. The verb καταβάλλομαι colocates (is customarily used) with θεμέλιον, so it is left to the listener's own good sense to supply a suitable verb for διδαχήν. Simplest being best for a off-the-cuff cognition, so either λέγειν or λαλεῖν might do - that is to suggest that, μὴ πάλιν διδαχὴν λέγοντες, followed by the genitives might be how that could have been put into grammar, if the thought needed to be.

The second of those two sections has the τε ... τε ... καί structure. I take that to stress the integrated nature of the doctrine (as SW does), all 4 parts (not as SW does).
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Randall Tan
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Joined: June 30th, 2011, 12:44 pm

Re: Better grasping τε and καὶ

Post by Randall Tan » October 8th, 2016, 6:28 pm

I agree with Stephen's analysis about τοῦτο & the connections between φερώμεθα & ποιήσομεν, & the list of objects of the participle καταβαλλόμενοι explaining the introductory statement ἀφέντες τὸν τῆς ἀρχῆς τοῦ Χριστοῦ λόγον. The main contribution I'd like to make here is to point out how different decisions on textual variants here change the resultant structure & interpretation.

The Nestle1904 text
N1904Heb6_1.jpg
N1904Heb6_1.jpg (160.25 KiB) Viewed 790 times
has accusative διδαχὴν in parallel to accusative θεμέλιον & omits the last τε (ἀναστάσεώς νεκρῶν καὶ κρίματος αἰωνίου). The original question about τε ... καὶ would not apply if one is interpreting this text as there is no τε:
βαπτισμῶν
τε
ἐπιθέσεώς χειρῶν
ἀναστάσεώς νεκρῶν
καὶ
κρίματος αἰωνίου

The SBLGNT text
SBLGNTHeb6_1.jpg
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has accusative διδαχὴν in parallel to accusative θεμέλιον & has ἀναστάσεώς τε νεκρῶν καὶ κρίματος αἰωνίου. There would be 4 conjoined genitives modifying διδαχὴν, if one is interpreting this text:
βαπτισμῶν
τε
ἐπιθέσεώς χειρῶν
τε
ἀναστάσεώς νεκρῶν
καὶ
κρίματος αἰωνίου

The NA28 text
NA28Heb6_1.jpg
NA28Heb6_1.jpg (162.46 KiB) Viewed 790 times
has genitive διδαχῆς, which would put it in parallel with μετανοίας & πίστεως, & has ἀναστάσεώς τε νεκρῶν καὶ κρίματος αἰωνίου. There would likewise be 4 conjoined genitives modifying διδαχῆς, if one is interpreting this text:
βαπτισμῶν
τε
ἐπιθέσεώς χειρῶν
τε
ἀναστάσεώς νεκρῶν
καὶ
κρίματος αἰωνίου
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Randall Tan

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