Translation on 2Thessalonians 2:9

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danielkim
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Translation on 2Thessalonians 2:9

Post by danielkim » January 13th, 2017, 9:35 pm

Nestle Greek New Testament 1904
οὗ ἐστιν ἡ παρουσία κατ’ ἐνέργειαν τοῦ Σατανᾶ ἐν πάσῃ δυνάμει καὶ σημείοις καὶ τέρασιν ψεύδους

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Hi everyone,

when I study this verse, I began to think lots of traditional translations has error in this verse.

the underlined bold words "Even Him" is actually presence of Jesus. but lots of translations described it as "Satan" or " Lawless one".

this is my understanding.

the presence of Jesus will be against the works of Satan,....

please help and let me know what you guys think.

thank you.

Daniel Kim

Bible student U.S.A Virginia
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Translation on 2Thessalonians 2:9

Post by Jonathan Robie » January 14th, 2017, 12:21 pm

Let me add in verse 8:
8 καὶ τότε ἀποκαλυφθήσεται ὁ ἄνομος, ὃν ὁ κύριος Ἰησοῦς ἀνελεῖ τῷ πνεύματι τοῦ στόματος αὐτοῦ καὶ καταργήσει τῇ ἐπιφανείᾳ τῆς παρουσίας αὐτοῦ, 9 οὗ ἐστιν ἡ παρουσία κατ’ ἐνέργειαν τοῦ Σατανᾶ ἐν πάσῃ δυνάμει καὶ σημείοις καὶ τέρασιν ψεύδους
I think your question is whether οὗ refers to ὁ ἄνομος or to ὁ κύριος Ἰησοῦς. I think it refers to ὁ ἄνομος. The sentence starts out saying that ὁ ἄνομος will appear (ἀποκαλυφθήσεται ὁ ἄνομος), and returns to it by describing this appearance (οὗ ἐστιν ἡ παρουσία). The structure of the sentence is essentially ὁ ἄνομος ... ὃν ... οὗ ....

I think you are seeing that Jesus also appears, and the verse explicitly refers to his coming too (καὶ καταργήσει τῇ ἐπιφανείᾳ τῆς παρουσίας αὐτοῦ), but whoever οὗ refers to, his coming is κατ’ ἐνέργειαν τοῦ Σατανᾶ. Do you really think that could be Jesus? I don't think that makes sense.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: Translation on 2Thessalonians 2:9

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » January 14th, 2017, 3:37 pm

2Th. 2:7 τὸ γὰρ μυστήριον ἤδη ἐνεργεῖται τῆς ἀνομίας· μόνον ὁ κατέχων ἄρτι ἕως ἐκ μέσου γένηται. 8 καὶ τότε ἀποκαλυφθήσεται ὁ ἄνομος, ὃν ὁ κύριος [Ἰησοῦς] ἀνελεῖ τῷ πνεύματι τοῦ στόματος αὐτοῦ καὶ καταργήσει τῇ ἐπιφανείᾳ τῆς παρουσίας αὐτοῦ, 9 οὗ ἐστιν ἡ παρουσία κατ᾿ ἐνέργειαν τοῦ σατανᾶ ἐν πάσῃ δυνάμει καὶ σημείοις καὶ τέρασιν ψεύδους 10 καὶ ἐν πάσῃ ἀπάτῃ ἀδικίας τοῖς ἀπολλυμένοις, ἀνθ᾿ ὧν τὴν ἀγάπην τῆς ἀληθείας οὐκ ἐδέξαντο εἰς τὸ σωθῆναι αὐτούς.

Searching on: mystery κατ ̓ ἐνέργειαν τοῦ σατανᾶ, I pulled up 1-2 Thessalonians (Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament) Jeffrey A. D. Weima - 2014. The comments on 2 Thessalonians 2:8 and 2:9 point out that Paul’s argument here is complicated by multiple embedded relative clauses. Weima observes that 2:9 begins after an interruption leaving the casual reader wondering who is the antecedent of the relative. Looking back to the most recent antecedent ὁ κύριος [Ἰησοῦς] fails because this antecedent is embedded in a backgrounded relative clause. Verse 9 begins another relative clause which makes a good antecedent hard to find. Weima points out that translators have found various ways of augmenting the text of verse nine to relieve the ambiguity. The exegetical solution is attained by careful attention to paragraph level discourse and semantic structure.
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C. Stirling Bartholomew

danielkim
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Re: Translation on 2Thessalonians 2:9

Post by danielkim » January 15th, 2017, 6:57 am

the word "Parousia" appeared in verse 8 and then same word appeared in verse 9.

Parousia + of + him(Jesus) + whose + is + Parousia is against the work of Satan......

the presence of Jesus is against the work of Satan.
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Translation on 2Thessalonians 2:9

Post by Jonathan Robie » January 15th, 2017, 10:31 am

I interpret κατ ̓ ἐνέργειαν τοῦ σατανᾶ as "based on Satan's working". I think οὗ in verse 9 is parallel with ὅν, and refers to ὁ ἄνομος.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Translation on 2Thessalonians 2:9

Post by Barry Hofstetter » January 15th, 2017, 10:38 am

danielkim wrote:the word "Parousia" appeared in verse 8 and then same word appeared in verse 9.

Parousia + of + him(Jesus) + whose + is + Parousia is against the work of Satan......

the presence of Jesus is against the work of Satan.
You've already been given good responses which answer this. Here, let me point out the old saw, that if you think you see something that everyone else is missing, including in this case multiple commentators and translators who have spent lifetimes studying this, then it's probably not they who have missed it, but you. Repeating the same word, even closely in context, while it may have rhetorical effect, does not mean that it necessarily has the same usage or referent. "The captain can run the ship even though her first mate has a run in her stocking" repeats the word run twice in two clearly different meanings, and "her" is repeated each time with a different referent. Context, well explained by Stirling, makes all the difference.
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
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