Rendering Gender - Mark 13:24 in particular

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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Rendering Gender - Mark 13:24 in particular

Post by Jonathan Robie » April 2nd, 2017, 7:09 am

Douglas Nast wrote:
March 31st, 2017, 1:27 pm
This struck me as absurd, since the imaginative association between the moon and femininity is a virtually universal cultural reference point, and a literal translation could not be misunderstood by any English reader.

I rushed to the references and found that all the English translations rendered this as "its light". I starting frothing at them mouth to everyone I could find, then I checked the King James and found it rendered this as "her light".

I won't give all the obvious reasons supporting the literal translation here, since on the face of it this is a no brainer.
No.

Let's start with this:
The imaginative association between the moon and femininity is a virtually universal cultural reference point
The article for the sun and the moon is not consistent across languages. A Frenchman, a German, and an American look at the moon. In French it is la lune - feminine, in German it is Der Mond - masculine, in English it is the moon - articles do not carry gender in English. Pronouns agree with noun in gender, so a Frenchman will say "she is pretty today ", a German will say "he is pretty today", and an American will say "it is pretty today". It is the same way with Greek.

If you translate Greek into German, you use the masculine article for the moon because it is Der Mond in German. The gender of an article is not an inherent part of the meaning of the word it refers to, and it is arbitrary across languages. For instance, here is an example from Mark Twain's essay:
Gretchen: Wilhelm, where is the turnip?
Wilhelm: She has gone to the kitchen.
Gretchen: Where is the accomplished and beautiful English maiden?
Wilhelm: It has gone to the opera.
Please take the time to read the Mark Twain article. I posted that for a reason. You really don't have a clue about how gender works in languages, and that's fine for a beginner, but you will learn faster if you listen with some curiosity and try t understand what others are saying and why. You getting the same message from your teacher, forum participants who know much more Greek than you do, and all English translations since the KJV - when you see that kind of pattern, it's usually a good time to stop frothing at the mouth and start listening and doing a little research.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Douglas Nast
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Re: Rendering Gender - Mark 13:24 in particular

Post by Douglas Nast » April 2nd, 2017, 11:42 am

I see that in my New King James it is "its light" and a long list of contributing scholars, taking two pages to present, signed a statement of verbal and plenary inspiration. On this evidence and the reasoned arguments presented by scholars here it would be entirely prudent of me to defer to those much more qualified than myself and shut up. I wonder though if the 1611 scholars didn't have a different reference frame, one less tainted with the idea that man is the measure of all things, since the idea was then more novel. And so, I remain a skeptic, though a more humble one.

Wes Wood
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Re: Rendering Gender - Mark 13:24 in particular

Post by Wes Wood » April 2nd, 2017, 8:27 pm

Douglas Nast wrote:The answer seems quite straightforward. Stipulating the accuracy of your translations, the Holy Spirit inspired "feet of him" in one place and "feet of those" in another. From this we can conclude that the Holy Spirit sees His expression in Romans as a fair equivalence to that in Isaiah. This says nothing about verbal inspiration as near as I can tell.
For what it's worth, you have no need to fear the accuracy of these translations. They were taken directly from the ESV. If there is an error, I am unaware of it. Also, my practice in the instances I offer my own translation is to provide the source text so those who are able can make their own decisions.

I wasn't asking my questions to attack verbal inspiration. I was wondering about how your conception of verbal inspiration related to the topic of "rendering gender." Having given it more thought, I should have asked instead what difference(s) you see between the two renderings you cited and what you think of the KJV's rendering in the verses below.
Matthew 26:52a wrote:τότε λέγει αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς· ἀπόστρεψον τὴν μάχαιράν σου εἰς τὸν τόπον αὐτῆς·
(Feminine Singular Genitive with antecedent ἡ μάχαιρα)
KJV wrote:Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place:
instead of
Wes Wood wrote:Then Jesus said to him, Return your sword to her place.
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Stephen Carlson
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Re: Rendering Gender - Mark 13:24 in particular

Post by Stephen Carlson » April 3rd, 2017, 2:17 am

Wes Wood wrote:
April 2nd, 2017, 8:27 pm
KJV wrote:Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place:
instead of
Wes Wood wrote:Then Jesus said to him, Return your sword to her place.
One should also realize that the possessive of the neuter pronoun in the somewhat old-fashioned language of the KJV was still his (occasionally thereof would also be used, and more rarely of it). In fact, the newer form its is absent from the 1611 KJV, though one instance was added in a later revision to Lev 25:5 by 'correcting' of it owne accord to of its own accord.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Rendering Gender - Mark 13:24 in particular

Post by Jonathan Robie » April 3rd, 2017, 5:55 am

Jonathan Robie wrote:
April 2nd, 2017, 7:09 am
If you translate Greek into German, you use the masculine article for the moon because it is Der Mond in German.
I was curious about how translators might approach "her" versus "his" when translating this.

Here are Elberfelder 1905 and Schlachter 1951:
Aber in jenen Tagen, nach jener Drangsal, wird die Sonne verfinstert werden und der Mond seinen Schein nicht geben;
Aber in jenen Tagen, nach jener Trübsal, wird die Sonne verfinstert werden, und der Mond wird seinen Schein nicht geben,
The moon will not give his light. After all, Der Mond is masculine.

Luther avoids this by translating more loosely:
Aber zu der Zeit, nach dieser Trübsal, werden Sonne und Mond ihren Schein verlieren,
Sun and moon will loose their light. The Neue Genfer translation also uses a looser translation here:
Doch dann, nach jener Zeit der Not, ›wird sich die Sonne verfinstern, und der Mond wird nicht mehr scheinen.
And the moon will no longer shine.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Wes Wood
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Re: Rendering Gender - Mark 13:24 in particular

Post by Wes Wood » April 3rd, 2017, 8:17 am

Stephen Carlson wrote:
April 3rd, 2017, 2:17 am
Wes Wood wrote:
April 2nd, 2017, 8:27 pm
KJV wrote:Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place:
instead of
Wes Wood wrote:Then Jesus said to him, Return your sword to her place.
One should also realize that the possessive of the neuter pronoun in the somewhat old-fashioned language of the KJV was still his (occasionally thereof would also be used, and more rarely of it). In fact, the newer form its is absent from the 1611 KJV, though one instance was added in a later revision to Lev 25:5 by 'correcting' of it owne accord to of its own accord.
Aren't spoilers supposed to be marked? :shock:

So much for problem based learning...:cry:

I'm busting your chops, Dr. Carlson, but do I intend the early or late meaning? :lol:
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

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