Restrictive Adjectives

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RandallButh
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Re: Restrictive Adjectives

Post by RandallButh » May 2nd, 2017, 4:47 am

There is more than one current flowing in these structures.

First, we can paraphrase the metalanguage (the terms used to define the language structure) to help students.

ὁ ἀνὴρ ὁ ἀγαθός gives a little bit of extra salience/weight/importance to the adjective by having it come separately, and in a following position, and in requiring extra tagging (that is, requiring a second article in this case). There is a natural information flow from presupposed information to salient information in larger presentations/sentences and such may affect lower structures where choices are available. This would agree with Black, in a generic way. Exactly why the natural salience was added/chosen must be determined in each context. Before going too far, though, one must remember that the very existence of the adjective, the reason for explicitly using the adjective, already adds character to the noun phrase and Robertson may also be correct in stating that this normal order ὁ ἀγαθὸς ἀνἠρ leads to a natural highlighting of the adjective. Yet Robertson correctly adds that the other order ὁ ἀνὴρ ὁ ἀγαθός adds a "climax" effect.

Secondly, in Biblical Greek, that is, in the LXX (Greek OT) or in the Gospels and Acts, the word order may be produced by mimicking Hebrew word order, האיש הטוב ha-ish ha-tov, so that its effect in Greek may be blurred a little bit in this literature.

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Restrictive Adjectives

Post by Jonathan Robie » May 3rd, 2017, 2:58 pm

Thanks, Randall. I like the way you put this.

I'm thinking about what is most useful to teach beginners, and I think it comes down to two things.

1. The distinction between (1) attributive, (2) predicative, and (3) substantive use of the adjective. There's not much disagreement on that.

2. ὁ ἀνὴρ ὁ ἀγαθός is more marked, it is less common, and it gives a little bit of extra salience/weight/importance to the adjective - and perhaps to the construct as a whole. As you point out, "Exactly why the natural salience was added/chosen must be determined in each context". So far, I'm not convinced that the ascriptive / restrictive terms help explain that.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Restrictive Adjectives

Post by Stephen Hughes » May 4th, 2017, 12:56 am

Alan Bunning wrote:
April 30th, 2017, 10:17 am
So for these that follow the fourth pattern then, should they all be treated as predicate adjectives instead?

Matt. 14:30 τὸν ἄνεμον ἰσχυρὸν “but seeing the strong wind” or “but seeing the wind [was] strong”
John 5:36 τὴν μαρτυρίαν μείζω “but I have a greater witness [than] John” or “but I have a witness [that is] greater [than] John”
Acts 7:19 ὁ βρέφος ἔκθετος “to make exposed infants” or maybe treat this as a double direct object “to make the infants exposed”
1Thes. 3:13 ὁ καρδία ἄμεμπτος “establish your blameless hearts” or “establish your hearts [to be] blameless”
1Tim. 6:14 ὁ ἐντολή ἄσπιλος ἀνεπίλημπτος “to keep the unspotted irreproachable commandment” or “to keep the commandment [that is] unspotted and irreproachable”
Rev. 19:9 οἱ λόγοι ἀληθινοὶ “these are true words of God” or “these words [are] true [which] are of God”??? Not too sure what to do with this one.
I guess from way you have recomposed these verses that you are probably asking this same question that I did early on in my Greek study. Let me phrase it in a different way.

Do the rules of predicative and attributive adjective positions still apply when the phrase is no longer in the nominative? That is to say, as indicated from your selective recomposition, if we ignore the rest of the syntax, can we go back to this very basic pattern and get some or a greater part of the syntactical meaning from it?

30 years after asking the question myself, I'm less sure that there is a simple answer that can be formulated or a pattern that can be taught that can be used in the range of situations you've suggested. I think that some of what holds in the nominative non-verbal syntax also holds in the other situations, but there are other factors at work too.

Let me answer your implied question, "How does the adjective work with the noun in these verses? Is that the same as the non-verbal sentence?" I've never found much use for meta-language in teaching or learning of any language, so, I won't directly address what terms you or others are using, but rather describe things.

In these two of the verses that you have brought up:
ἐκάκωσεν τοὺς πατέρας ἡμῶν, τοῦ ποιεῖν ἔκθετα τὰ βρέφη αὐτῶν,
1 Thessalonians 3:13 wrote:εἰς τὸ στηρίξαι ὑμῶν τὰς καρδίας ἀμέμπτους ἐν ἁγιωσύνῃ,
the most basic issue of interpretation is whether the new-born / unborn babies and the hearts existed before something happened to them. In these cases, presumably, they did, and the verbs are being used to describe a change, some additional information, a way of saying something extra about the things that already exist.

These two similar verbs - ποιεῖν and στηρίξαι - can be used of both making something in the first place, or making a change in something that already exists. That happens in other places

Now to what I think is the core issue of what you are asking, "What's the same and what's different between this and the non-verbal sentences patterns that you described?" The first is that using the verbs ποιεῖν and στηρίξαι includes another party in the picture, and describes a process by which something came about. Not using the verbs just describes a state, what we can find at a particular moment. The statements ἔκθετα τὰ βρέφη αὐτῶν "their new-born / unborn children are exposed" and αἱ καρδίαι ὑμῶν ἄμεμπτοι ἐν ἁγιωσύνῃ "your hearts are blameless in holiness" are true also, and the use of the article is the same as in the verbal sentence.

Now, another very basic question about the phrase from Thessalonians. Could εἰς τὸ στηρίξαι ὑμῶν τὰς καρδίας ἀμέμπτους ἐν ἁγιωσύνῃ be meaningful without the adjective ἀμέμπτους, just with a noun? Yes. It could, this verb στηρίζειν allows that, and it would mean "strenthen your hearts". What happens then when στηρίζειν is used with an adjective as well as a noun? It has its own lexical meaning, and also serves the syntactic function of bringing an adjective and a noun together. Could that same thing happen with ποιεῖν ἔκθετα τὰ βρέφη αὐτῶν? No. Because ποιεῖν doesn't have any meaning, it only performs a syntactic function of beinging the noun and adjective together.
1 Timothy 6:14 wrote:τηρῆσαί σε τὴν ἐντολὴν ἄσπιλον, ἀνεπίληπτον
The verb τηρῆσαι is not an easy one to understand the usage of. It seems that keeping the law was not just a question of conforming to a set of rules that exists in abstract, but of keeping the law alive and real by following it. Something like, if the law is not followed, it will cease to exist. In terms of overlap with English, we often leave the state that something is "kept" in unspoken. We say, "She keeps the toys in a box", meaning, "keeps them tidy".

In the equivalent non-verbal sentence ἡ ἐντολὴ ἄσπιλος, ἀνεπίληπτος, it would mean that the commandment had those characteristics. In the verbal sentence τηρῆσαί σε τὴν ἐντολὴν ἄσπιλον, ἀνεπίληπτον it says that Timothy has to do something or has responsibility to see that the commandment continues to have those characteristics.
Matthew 14:30 wrote:Βλέπων δὲ τὸν ἄνεμον ἰσχυρὸν
This is unremarkable. This is one of the normal syntactic patterns fora verb of seeing or knowing. ὁ ἄνεμος ἰσχυρός would mean that a characteristic of the wind was being described. Here the process of noticing is being described.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Restrictive Adjectives

Post by Jonathan Robie » May 4th, 2017, 10:16 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:
May 4th, 2017, 12:56 am
I guess from way you have recomposed these verses that you are probably asking this same question that I did early on in my Greek study. Let me phrase it in a different way.

Do the rules of predicative and attributive adjective positions still apply when the phrase is no longer in the nominative? That is to say, as indicated from your selective recomposition, if we ignore the rest of the syntax, can we go back to this very basic pattern and get some or a greater part of the syntactical meaning from it?
Let me try another way of rephrasing the question: If we understand what these constructions mean in the nominative, how does that interact with the role a constituent plays with respect to the rest of the sentence? Let's consider the examples you mentioned, teasing out these two things.
ἐκάκωσεν τοὺς πατέρας ἡμῶν, τοῦ ποιεῖν ἔκθετα τὰ βρέφη αὐτῶν
This is not really an example of the construction we are discussing. It should be read as follows:

v.inf ποιεῖν
o τὰ βρέφη αὐτῶ*
o2 ἔκθετα

So the oblique case is a hint that we have two objects of ποιεῖν here.
1 Thessalonians 3:13 wrote:εἰς τὸ στηρίξαι ὑμῶν τὰς καρδίας ἀμέμπτους ἐν ἁγιωσύνῃ,
I think this is another such case.

εἰς τὸ
v.inf στηρίξαι
o ὑμῶν τὰς καρδίας
o2 ἀμέμπτους
adv ἐν ἁγιωσύνῃ
adv ἔμπροσθεν τοῦ Θεοῦ καὶ πατρὸς ἡμῶν
adv ἐν τῇ παρουσίᾳ τοῦ Κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ μετὰ πάντων τῶν ἁγίων αὐτοῦ.

Again, the case is a hint that this is not the same construct we have been discussing, these are objects of the infinitive.
1 Timothy 6:14 wrote:τηρῆσαί σε τὴν ἐντολὴν ἄσπιλον, ἀνεπίληπτον
This is quite similar to the other two constructs.

v.inf τηρῆσαί
s σε
o τὴν ἐντολὴν
adv ἄσπιλον ἀνεπίλημπτον

Ooops, once again we are not looking at an instance of the construct we are discussing. So these examples don't actually help answer the rephrased question I asked at the beginning ...
Stephen Hughes wrote:
May 4th, 2017, 12:56 am
The verb τηρῆσαι is not an easy one to understand the usage of. It seems that keeping the law was not just a question of conforming to a set of rules that exists in abstract, but of keeping the law alive and real by following it. Something like, if the law is not followed, it will cease to exist. In terms of overlap with English, we often leave the state that something is "kept" in unspoken. We say, "She keeps the toys in a box", meaning, "keeps them tidy".
Hmmm, that seems unlikely to me. I suspect that the LXX uses this term to describe observing the law, while still describing the law as something eternal - whether or not we keep it. But that's taking us far afield ... perhaps that's for another thread.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Restrictive Adjectives

Post by Jonathan Robie » May 4th, 2017, 11:58 am

Let's look for instances of this construction where the noun is not nominative.

I think we are looking for noun phrases with 4 words, in the order ART NOUN ART ADJECTIVE, where the noun is not nominative and the other words have the same case as the noun. In other words, we're looking for this:
for $np in //wg[@class='np']
let $words := $np//w
where count($words) = 4
and $words[1][@class='det' and @case = $words[2]/@case]
and $words[2][@class='noun' and @case != 'nominative']
and $words[3][@class='det' and @case = $words[2]/@case]
and $words[4][@class='adj' and @case = $words[2]/@case]
return $np
I haven't looked at these carefully, there may be some false positives here. Here are results from Matthew - does the traditional explanation fit?

τὸ σκότος τὸ ἐξώτερον·
Matt.8.12 οἱ δὲ υἱοὶ τῆς βασιλείας ἐκβληθήσονται εἰς τὸ σκότος τὸ ἐξώτερον·

τοῦ Πνεύματος τοῦ Ἁγίου,
Matt.12.32 ὃς δ’ ἂν εἴπῃ κατὰ τοῦ Πνεύματος τοῦ Ἁγίου, οὐκ ἀφεθήσεται αὐτῷ οὔτε ἐν τούτῳ τῷ αἰῶνι οὔτε ἐν τῷ μέλλοντι.

τὴν γῆν τὴν καλὴν
Matt.13.4 καὶ ἐν τῷ σπείρειν αὐτὸν ἃ μὲν ἔπεσεν παρὰ τὴν ὁδόν, καὶ ἐλθόντα τὰ πετεινὰ κατέφαγεν αὐτά. ἄλλα δὲ ἔπεσεν ἐπὶ τὰ πετρώδη ὅπου οὐκ εἶχεν γῆν πολλήν, καὶ εὐθέως ἐξανέτειλεν διὰ τὸ μὴ ἔχειν βάθος γῆς, ἡλίου δὲ ἀνατείλαντος ἐκαυματίσθη καὶ διὰ τὸ μὴ ἔχειν ῥίζαν ἐξηράνθη. ἄλλα δὲ ἔπεσεν ἐπὶ τὰς ἀκάνθας, καὶ ἀνέβησαν αἱ ἄκανθαι καὶ ἀπέπνιξαν αὐτά. ἄλλα δὲ ἔπεσεν ἐπὶ τὴν γῆν τὴν καλὴν καὶ ἐδίδου καρπόν, ὃ μὲν ἑκατὸν ὃ δὲ ἑξήκοντα ὃ δὲ τριάκοντα.

τὸ πῦρ τὸ αἰώνιον.
Matt.18.8 καλόν σοί ἐστιν εἰσελθεῖν εἰς τὴν ζωὴν κυλλὸν ἢ χωλόν, ἢ δύο χεῖρας ἢ δύο πόδας ἔχοντα βληθῆναι εἰς τὸ πῦρ τὸ αἰώνιον.

τὸ σκότος τὸ ἐξώτερον·
Matt.22.13 τότε ὁ βασιλεὺς εἶπεν τοῖς διακόνοις Δήσαντες αὐτοῦ πόδας καὶ χεῖρας ἐκβάλετε αὐτὸν εἰς τὸ σκότος τὸ ἐξώτερον·

τῆς ἀναστάσεως τῶν νεκρῶν
Matt.22.31 περὶ δὲ τῆς ἀναστάσεως τῶν νεκρῶν οὐκ ἀνέγνωτε τὸ ῥηθὲν ὑμῖν ὑπὸ τοῦ Θεοῦ λέγοντος Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ Θεὸς Ἀβραὰμ καὶ ὁ Θεὸς Ἰσαὰκ καὶ ὁ Θεὸς Ἰακώβ;

τὸ σκότος τὸ ἐξώτερον·
Matt.25.30 καὶ τὸν ἀχρεῖον δοῦλον ἐκβάλετε εἰς τὸ σκότος τὸ ἐξώτερον·

τὸ πῦρ τὸ αἰώνιον
Matt.25.41 τότε ἐρεῖ καὶ τοῖς ἐξ εὐωνύμων Πορεύεσθε ἀπ’ ἐμοῦ κατηραμένοι εἰς τὸ πῦρ τὸ αἰώνιον τὸ ἡτοιμασμένον τῷ διαβόλῳ καὶ τοῖς ἀγγέλοις αὐτοῦ.

Let's add Luke and John:

τῷ μηνὶ τῷ ἕκτῳ
Luke.1.26 Ἐν δὲ τῷ μηνὶ τῷ ἕκτῳ ἀπεστάλη ὁ ἄγγελος Γαβριὴλ ἀπὸ τοῦ Θεοῦ εἰς πόλιν τῆς Γαλιλαίας ᾗ ὄνομα Ναζαρὲθ, πρὸς παρθένον ἐμνηστευμένην ἀνδρὶ ᾧ ὄνομα Ἰωσὴφ, ἐξ οἴκου Δαυείδ, καὶ τὸ ὄνομα τῆς παρθένου Μαριάμ.

τῇ ἡμέρᾳ τῇ ὀγδόῃ
Luke.1.59 Καὶ ἐγένετο ἐν τῇ ἡμέρᾳ τῇ ὀγδόῃ ἦλθον περιτεμεῖν τὸ παιδίον, καὶ ἐκάλουν αὐτὸ ἐπὶ τῷ ὀνόματι τοῦ πατρὸς αὐτοῦ Ζαχαρίαν.

τοῦ Πνεύματος τοῦ Ἁγίου
Luke.2.26 καὶ ἦν αὐτῷ κεχρηματισμένον ὑπὸ τοῦ Πνεύματος τοῦ Ἁγίου μὴ ἰδεῖν θάνατον πρὶν ἢ ἂν ἴδῃ τὸν Χριστὸν Κυρίου.

τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ Ἅγιον
Luke.3.21 Ἐγένετο δὲ ἐν τῷ βαπτισθῆναι ἅπαντα τὸν λαὸν καὶ Ἰησοῦ βαπτισθέντος καὶ προσευχομένου ἀνεῳχθῆναι τὸν οὐρανὸν, καὶ καταβῆναι τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ Ἅγιον σωματικῷ εἴδει ὡς περιστερὰν ἐπ’ αὐτόν, καὶ φωνὴν ἐξ οὐρανοῦ γενέσθαι Σὺ εἶ ὁ Υἱός μου ὁ ἀγαπητός, ἐν σοὶ εὐδόκησα.

τὴν γῆν τὴν ἀγαθήν,
Luke.8.8 καὶ ἕτερον ἔπεσεν εἰς τὴν γῆν τὴν ἀγαθήν, καὶ φυὲν ἐποίησεν καρπὸν ἑκατονταπλασίονα.

τοῦ Θεοῦ τοῦ Ὑψίστου;
Luke.8.28 ἰδὼν δὲ τὸν Ἰησοῦν ἀνακράξας προσέπεσεν αὐτῷ καὶ φωνῇ μεγάλῃ εἶπεν Τί ἐμοὶ καὶ σοί, Ἰησοῦ Υἱὲ τοῦ Θεοῦ τοῦ Ὑψίστου; δέομαί σου, μή με βασανίσῃς.

τῷ πνεύματι τῷ ἀκαθάρτῳ
Luke.8.29 παρήγγελλεν γὰρ τῷ πνεύματι τῷ ἀκαθάρτῳ ἐξελθεῖν ἀπὸ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου.

τῷ πνεύματι τῷ ἀκαθάρτῳ,
Luke.9.42 ἐπετίμησεν δὲ ὁ Ἰησοῦς τῷ πνεύματι τῷ ἀκαθάρτῳ, καὶ ἰάσατο τὸν παῖδα καὶ ἀπέδωκεν αὐτὸν τῷ πατρὶ αὐτοῦ.

τῷ Πνεύματι τῷ Ἁγίῳ
Luke.10.21 Ἐν αὐτῇ τῇ ὥρᾳ ἠγαλλιάσατο τῷ Πνεύματι τῷ Ἁγίῳ καὶ εἶπεν Ἐξομολογοῦμαί σοι, Πάτερ, Κύριε τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καὶ τῆς γῆς, ὅτι ἀπέκρυψας ταῦτα ἀπὸ σοφῶν καὶ συνετῶν, καὶ ἀπεκάλυψας αὐτὰ νηπίοις· ναί, ὁ Πατήρ, ὅτι οὕτως εὐδοκία ἐγένετο ἔμπροσθέν σου. πάντα μοι παρεδόθη ὑπὸ τοῦ Πατρός μου, καὶ οὐδεὶς γινώσκει τίς ἐστιν ὁ Υἱὸς εἰ μὴ ὁ Πατήρ, καὶ τίς ἐστιν ὁ Πατὴρ εἰ μὴ ὁ Υἱὸς καὶ ᾧ ἐὰν βούληται ὁ Υἱὸς ἀποκαλύψαι.

τὸν μόσχον τὸν σιτευτόν,
Luke.15.22 εἶπεν δὲ ὁ πατὴρ πρὸς τοὺς δούλους αὐτοῦ Ταχὺ ἐξενέγκατε στολὴν τὴν πρώτην καὶ ἐνδύσατε αὐτόν, καὶ δότε δακτύλιον εἰς τὴν χεῖρα αὐτοῦ καὶ ὑποδήματα εἰς τοὺς πόδας, καὶ φέρετε τὸν μόσχον τὸν σιτευτόν, θύσατε, καὶ φαγόντες εὐφρανθῶμεν, ὅτι οὗτος ὁ υἱός μου νεκρὸς ἦν καὶ ἀνέζησεν, ἦν ἀπολωλὼς καὶ εὑρέθη.

τὸν μόσχον τὸν σιτευτόν,
Luke.15.27 ὁ δὲ εἶπεν αὐτῷ ὅτι Ὁ ἀδελφός σου ἥκει, καὶ ἔθυσεν ὁ πατήρ σου τὸν μόσχον τὸν σιτευτόν, ὅτι ὑγιαίνοντα αὐτὸν ἀπέλαβεν.

τῆς τραπέζης τοῦ πλουσίου·
Luke.16.20 πτωχὸς δέ τις ὀνόματι Λάζαρος ἐβέβλητο πρὸς τὸν πυλῶνα αὐτοῦ εἱλκωμένος καὶ ἐπιθυμῶν χορτασθῆναι ἀπὸ τῶν πιπτόντων ἀπὸ τῆς τραπέζης τοῦ πλουσίου·

τῇ ἡμέρᾳ τῇ τρίτῃ
Luke.18.31 Παραλαβὼν δὲ τοὺς δώδεκα εἶπεν πρὸς αὐτούς Ἰδοὺ ἀναβαίνομεν εἰς Ἱερουσαλήμ, καὶ τελεσθήσεται πάντα τὰ γεγραμμένα διὰ τῶν προφητῶν τῷ Υἱῷ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου· παραδοθήσεται γὰρ τοῖς ἔθνεσιν καὶ ἐμπαιχθήσεται καὶ ὑβρισθήσεται καὶ ἐμπτυσθήσεται, καὶ μαστιγώσαντες ἀποκτενοῦσιν αὐτόν, καὶ τῇ ἡμέρᾳ τῇ τρίτῃ ἀναστήσεται.

τὸν ἀδελφὸν τὸν ἴδιον
John.1.41 εὑρίσκει οὗτος πρῶτον τὸν ἀδελφὸν τὸν ἴδιον Σίμωνα καὶ λέγει αὐτῷ Εὑρήκαμεν τὸν Μεσσίαν (ὅ ἐστιν μεθερμηνευόμενον Χριστός).

τῇ ἡμέρᾳ τῇ τρίτῃ
John.2.1 Καὶ τῇ ἡμέρᾳ τῇ τρίτῃ γάμος ἐγένετο ἐν Κανὰ τῆς Γαλιλαίας, καὶ ἦν ἡ μήτηρ τοῦ Ἰησοῦ ἐκεῖ·

τὸν Υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ
John.3.16 Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ Θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν Υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ’ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.

τὸ θέλημα τὸ ἐμὸν
John.5.30 Οὐ δύναμαι ἐγὼ ποιεῖν ἀπ’ ἐμαυτοῦ οὐδέν· καθὼς ἀκούω κρίνω, καὶ ἡ κρίσις ἡ ἐμὴ δικαία ἐστίν, ὅτι οὐ ζητῶ τὸ θέλημα τὸ ἐμὸν ἀλλὰ τὸ θέλημα τοῦ πέμψαντός με.

τῷ ὀνόματι τῷ ἰδίῳ,
John.5.43 ἐὰν ἄλλος ἔλθῃ ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι τῷ ἰδίῳ, ἐκεῖνον λήμψεσθε.

τὸ θέλημα τὸ ἐμὸν
John.6.37 Πᾶν ὃ δίδωσίν μοι ὁ Πατὴρ πρὸς ἐμὲ ἥξει, καὶ τὸν ἐρχόμενον πρός με οὐ μὴ ἐκβάλω ἔξω, ὅτι καταβέβηκα ἀπὸ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ οὐχ ἵνα ποιῶ τὸ θέλημα τὸ ἐμὸν ἀλλὰ τὸ θέλημα τοῦ πέμψαντός με.

τὴν δόξαν τὴν ἰδίαν
John.7.18 ὁ ἀφ’ ἑαυτοῦ λαλῶν τὴν δόξαν τὴν ἰδίαν ζητεῖ·

τῷ νόμῳ τῷ ὑμετέρῳ
John.8.17 καὶ ἐν τῷ νόμῳ δὲ τῷ ὑμετέρῳ γέγραπται ὅτι δύο ἀνθρώπων ἡ μαρτυρία ἀληθής ἐστιν.

τῷ λόγῳ τῷ ἐμῷ,
John.8.31Ἔλεγεν οὖν ὁ Ἰησοῦς πρὸς τοὺς πεπιστευκότας αὐτῷ Ἰουδαίους Ἐὰν ὑμεῖς μείνητε ἐν τῷ λόγῳ τῷ ἐμῷ, ἀληθῶς μαθηταί μού ἐστε, καὶ γνώσεσθε τὴν ἀλήθειαν, καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια ἐλευθερώσει ὑμᾶς.

τὴν λαλιὰν τὴν ἐμὴν
John.8.43 διὰ τί τὴν λαλιὰν τὴν ἐμὴν οὐ γινώσκετε; ὅτι οὐ δύνασθε ἀκούειν τὸν λόγον τὸν ἐμόν.

τὸν λόγον τὸν ἐμόν.
John.8.43διὰ τί τὴν λαλιὰν τὴν ἐμὴν οὐ γινώσκετε; ὅτι οὐ δύνασθε ἀκούειν τὸν λόγον τὸν ἐμόν.

τοῦ πατρὸς τοῦ διαβόλου
John.8.44 ὑμεῖς ἐκ τοῦ πατρὸς τοῦ διαβόλου ἐστὲ καὶ τὰς ἐπιθυμίας τοῦ πατρὸς ὑμῶν θέλετε ποιεῖν.

τὴν ἡμέραν τὴν ἐμήν,
John.8.56 Ἀβραὰμ ὁ πατὴρ ὑμῶν ἠγαλλιάσατο ἵνα ἴδῃ τὴν ἡμέραν τὴν ἐμήν, καὶ εἶδεν καὶ ἐχάρη.

τῶν προβάτων τῶν ἐμῶν.
John.10.25 τὰ ἔργα ἃ ἐγὼ ποιῶ ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι τοῦ Πατρός μου, ταῦτα μαρτυρεῖ περὶ ἐμοῦ· ἀλλὰ ὑμεῖς οὐ πιστεύετε, ὅτι οὐκ ἐστὲ ἐκ τῶν προβάτων τῶν ἐμῶν.

τὰς ἐντολὰς τὰς ἐμὰς
John.14.15 Ἐὰν ἀγαπᾶτέ με, τὰς ἐντολὰς τὰς ἐμὰς τηρήσετε.

τῇ ἀγάπῃ τῇ ἐμῇ.
John.15.9 μείνατε ἐν τῇ ἀγάπῃ τῇ ἐμῇ.

τὴν χαρὰν τὴν ἐμὴν
John.17.13 νῦν δὲ πρὸς σὲ ἔρχομαι, καὶ ταῦτα λαλῶ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ ἵνα ἔχωσιν τὴν χαρὰν τὴν ἐμὴν πεπληρωμένην ἐν ἑαυτοῖς.

τὸ ὠτάριον τὸ δεξιόν.
John.18.10 Σίμων οὖν Πέτρος ἔχων μάχαιραν εἵλκυσεν αὐτὴν καὶ ἔπαισεν τὸν τοῦ ἀρχιερέως δοῦλον καὶ ἀπέκοψεν αὐτοῦ τὸ ὠτάριον τὸ δεξιόν.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3332
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Restrictive Adjectives

Post by Stephen Hughes » May 4th, 2017, 11:24 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:
May 4th, 2017, 10:16 am
ἐκάκωσεν τοὺς πατέρας ἡμῶν, τοῦ ποιεῖν ἔκθετα τὰ βρέφη αὐτῶν
This is not really an example of the construction we are discussing. It should be read as follows:

v.inf ποιεῖν
o τὰ βρέφη αὐτῶ*
o2 ἔκθετα

So the oblique case is a hint that we have two objects of ποιεῖν here.
I'm not included in the "we" that I have underlined in what Jonathan has said. I am not discussing one particular construction. My post (2 above) is about the contrast between how the nominative and adjective interact together independently (in the nominative) vs. what the introduction of a verb into the syntax has done in this and the following examples brought up by AB. My point was that in each case, the verb adds information about how the current relationship between the noun and adjective came about, and adding the verb to the relationship allows the introduction of extra players into the sentence.

I am unhappy and unwilling to accept being included in the same pronoun "we" here and in the two quotes that follow, for the simple reason that there is no "we" between Jonathan and I here. Jonathan is categorising and naming the parts of the verses as tbey exist in the Biblical text as it reads. I am contrasting AB's recomposition of these verses into the nominative and asking questions about how the rules of tne non-verbal sentences apply.
Jonathan Robie wrote:
May 4th, 2017, 10:16 am
1 Thessalonians 3:13 wrote:εἰς τὸ στηρίξαι ὑμῶν τὰς καρδίας ἀμέμπτους ἐν ἁγιωσύνῃ,
I think this is another such case.

εἰς τὸ
v.inf στηρίξαι
o ὑμῶν τὰς καρδίας
o2 ἀμέμπτους
adv ἐν ἁγιωσύνῃ
adv ἔμπροσθεν τοῦ Θεοῦ καὶ πατρὸς ἡμῶν
adv ἐν τῇ παρουσίᾳ τοῦ Κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ μετὰ πάντων τῶν ἁγίων αὐτοῦ.

Again, the case is a hint that this is not the same construct we have been discussing, these are objects of the infinitive.
This seems to be a disagreement with what I have said, but if you read closely in what I wrote, I am not making ascertations and points - I am making a discussion. It is out of place to disagree and try to be right (=correctly identify forms and usage). Once again, the use of "we" is spurious here, and doesn't include me.
Jonathan Robie wrote:
May 4th, 2017, 10:16 am
1 Timothy 6:14 wrote:τηρῆσαί σε τὴν ἐντολὴν ἄσπιλον, ἀνεπίληπτον
This is quite similar to the other two constructs.

v.inf τηρῆσαί
s σε
o τὴν ἐντολὴν
adv ἄσπιλον ἀνεπίλημπτον

Ooops, once again we are not looking at an instance of the construct we are discussing. So these examples don't actually help answer the rephrased question I asked at the beginning
As noted elsewhere, I refuse to participate in discussions that are set up to arrive at a result where a single and exclusive "correct" answer can be determined. Rephrasing the question has structured the discussion, description and exploration of knowledge into binary reductionalistic terms. There is no need to disagree with closely related ideas, when they can be left to coexist. The inclusion of me in the "we" here is misleading. I am not aiming for correct identification or naming of the grammatical elements of the sentence (nominalism), but rather the expansion of understanding based on contrast with hypothesised non-verbal relationships between nouns and adjectives.

There is no valid "we" in those statements. I want to make it clear that Jonathan and I have different reasonings and are making different points based on different aims. There can be no choice between whether what I say or what he says is right or wrong, simply because we are talking about different things based on different presuppositions with different aims.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3332
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Restrictive Adjectives

Post by Stephen Hughes » May 4th, 2017, 11:43 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:
May 4th, 2017, 10:16 am
Stephen Hughes wrote:
May 4th, 2017, 12:56 am
The verb τηρῆσαι is not an easy one to understand the usage of. It seems that keeping the law was not just a question of conforming to a set of rules that exists in abstract, but of keeping the law alive and real by following it. Something like, if the law is not followed, it will cease to exist. In terms of overlap with English, we often leave the state that something is "kept" in unspoken. We say, "She keeps the toys in a box", meaning, "keeps them tidy".
Hmmm, that seems unlikely to me. I suspect that the LXX uses this term to describe observing the law, while still describing the law as something eternal - whether or not we keep it. But that's taking us far afield ... perhaps that's for another thread.
The key word in what I said here is "seems". The nature of expression - the constraints of the language - are often at odds with what people who use the language actually understand. In English two examples of that might be, "He is enjoying himself." and "The sun is rising." The guy might be playing cricket or mobile phone games which are outside "himself", and I'm assuming that everybody nowdays is a heliocentrist. τηρῆσαι in the way that it is expressed in language seems to imply something.

To go beyond a beginner's needs for a moment, I think (speculate) that the authour of 1 Timothy is using / following the form of expression to make a point. That is to say that the special (technical) usage of τηρῆσαί τὴν ἐντολὴν / τὸν νόμον has been elaborated on by using the construction that was available for use with the non-technical meaning.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Jonathan Robie
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Location: Durham, NC
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Re: Restrictive Adjectives

Post by Jonathan Robie » May 5th, 2017, 8:46 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:
May 4th, 2017, 11:24 pm
I'm not included in the "we" that I have underlined in what Jonathan has said. I am not discussing one particular construction.
That's what I was pointing out. This thread is about a particular construction, and at first blush, your post seemed to be about that construction, then I realized it was not. Alan posted these as possible instances of the construction we had been discussing, and some of these are not.

Since you also asked whether this construction had the same meaning when not nominative, I provided a bunch of examples. To me, it does seem to have the same meaning when not nominative. But you have to screen out examples where words appear next to each other but are not actually part of the same constituent, as mentioned above.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3332
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Restrictive Adjectives

Post by Stephen Hughes » May 5th, 2017, 11:52 am

Jonathan Robie wrote:
May 5th, 2017, 8:46 am

Since you also asked whether this construction had the same meaning when not nominative, I provided a bunch of examples. To me, it does seem to have the same meaning when not nominative. But you have to screen out examples where words appear next to each other but are not actually part of the same constituent, as mentioned above.
The only one of those that seems in any way similar to AB examples is:
Luke 8:8 wrote:τὴν γῆν τὴν ἀγαθήν,
Luke.8.8 καὶ ἕτερον ἔπεσεν εἰς τὴν γῆν τὴν ἀγαθήν, καὶ φυὲν ἐποίησεν καρπὸν ἑκατονταπλασίονα.
That is a double accusative - noun and adjective - with ποιῆσαι, except that in this case the καρπός did not exist before the action of the verb ποιῆσαι.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Restrictive Adjectives

Post by Jonathan Robie » May 5th, 2017, 12:48 pm

Ah, my bad. Alan was most recently looking at "the fourth pattern", where the adjective follows the noun without an article before the adjective. His examples each include the article before the noun.

Going back to your rephrasing of his question:
Stephen Hughes wrote:
May 4th, 2017, 12:56 am
I guess from way you have recomposed these verses that you are probably asking this same question that I did early on in my Greek study. Let me phrase it in a different way.

Do the rules of predicative and attributive adjective positions still apply when the phrase is no longer in the nominative? That is to say, as indicated from your selective recomposition, if we ignore the rest of the syntax, can we go back to this very basic pattern and get some or a greater part of the syntactical meaning from it?
I was looking at attributive, where I think the rules do largely hold. But for predicative, I think you are right - the rules at least need to be extended. And there's a logical reason for this - a predicate is in the nominative, so if the adjective is not nominative, it probably isn't functioning as a predicate.

Let's look for some examples.

Code: Select all

for $np in //wg[@class='np']
let $words := $np//w
let $case := $words[2]/@case
where $case != 'nominative'
where count($words) = 3
and $words[1][@class='det' and @case = $case]
and $words[2][@class='noun']
and $words[3][@class='adj' and @case = $case]
return $np
Most of these results don't naturally fit a predicative interpretation.

Matt.9.35!5 τὰς πόλεις πάσας - Καὶ περιῆγεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς τὰς πόλεις πάσας καὶ τὰς κώμας, διδάσκων ἐν ταῖς συναγωγαῖς αὐτῶν καὶ κηρύσσων τὸ εὐαγγέλιον τῆς βασιλείας καὶ θεραπεύων πᾶσαν νόσον καὶ πᾶσαν μαλακίαν.
Matt.16.26!6 τὸν κόσμον ὅλον - τί γὰρ ὠφεληθήσεται ἄνθρωπος ἐὰν τὸν κόσμον ὅλον κερδήσῃ, τὴν δὲ ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ ζημιωθῇ; ἢ τί δώσει ἄνθρωπος ἀντάλλαγμα τῆς ψυχῆς αὐτοῦ;
Mark.8.36!6 τὸν κόσμον ὅλον - τί γὰρ ὠφελεῖ ἄνθρωπον κερδῆσαι τὸν κόσμον ὅλον καὶ ζημιωθῆναι τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ;
Mark.16.15!6 τὸν κόσμον ἅπαντα - καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Πορευθέντες εἰς τὸν κόσμον ἅπαντα κηρύξατε τὸ εὐαγγέλιον πάσῃ τῇ κτίσει.
Luke.9.25!6 τὸν κόσμον ὅλον - τί γὰρ ὠφελεῖται ἄνθρωπος κερδήσας τὸν κόσμον ὅλον ἑαυτὸν δὲ ἀπολέσας ἢ ζημιωθείς;
Luke.21.24!8 τὰ ἔθνη πάντα, - ἔσται γὰρ ἀνάγκη μεγάλη ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς καὶ ὀργὴ τῷ λαῷ τούτῳ, καὶ πεσοῦνται στόματι μαχαίρης καὶ αἰχμαλωτισθήσονται εἰς τὰ ἔθνη πάντα, καὶ Ἱερουσαλὴμ ἔσται πατουμένη ὑπὸ ἐθνῶν, ἄχρι οὗ πληρωθῶσιν καιροὶ ἐθνῶν.
John.5.22!8 τὴν κρίσιν πᾶσαν - οὐδὲ γὰρ ὁ Πατὴρ κρίνει οὐδένα, ἀλλὰ τὴν κρίσιν πᾶσαν δέδωκεν τῷ Υἱῷ, ἵνα πάντες τιμῶσι τὸν Υἱὸν καθὼς τιμῶσι τὸν Πατέρα.
John.16.13!12 τὴν ἀλήθειαν πᾶσαν· - ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ ἐκεῖνος, τὸ Πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας, ὁδηγήσει ὑμᾶς εἰς τὴν ἀλήθειαν πᾶσαν· οὐ γὰρ λαλήσει ἀφ’ ἑαυτοῦ, ἀλλ’ ὅσα ἀκούει λαλήσει, καὶ τὰ ἐρχόμενα ἀναγγελεῖ ὑμῖν.
Acts.8.40!9 τὰς πόλεις πάσας - Φίλιππος δὲ εὑρέθη εἰς Ἄζωτον, καὶ διερχόμενος εὐηγγελίζετο τὰς πόλεις πάσας ἕως τοῦ ἐλθεῖν αὐτὸν εἰς Καισάριαν.
Acts.20.26!12 τοῦ αἵματος πάντων· - διότι μαρτύρομαι ὑμῖν ἐν τῇ σήμερον ἡμέρᾳ ὅτι καθαρός εἰμι ἀπὸ τοῦ αἵματος πάντων· οὐ γὰρ ὑπεστειλάμην τοῦ μὴ ἀναγγεῖλαι πᾶσαν τὴν βουλὴν τοῦ Θεοῦ ὑμῖν.
1Cor.7.17!18 ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις πάσαις - καὶ οὕτως ἐν ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις πάσαις διατάσσομαι.
1Cor.13.2!7 τὰ μυστήρια πάντα - καὶ ἐὰν ἔχω προφητείαν καὶ εἰδῶ τὰ μυστήρια πάντα καὶ πᾶσαν τὴν γνῶσιν, καὶ ἐὰν ἔχω πᾶσαν τὴν πίστιν ὥστε ὄρη μεθιστάναι, ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω, οὐθέν εἰμι.
1Cor.15.7!5 τοῖς ἀποστόλοις πᾶσιν· - ἔπειτα ὤφθη Ἰακώβῳ, εἶτα τοῖς ἀποστόλοις πᾶσιν·
1Thess.5.26!2 τοὺς ἀδελφοὺς πάντας - Ἀσπάσασθε τοὺς ἀδελφοὺς πάντας ἐν φιλήματι ἁγίῳ.
Rev.3.10!20 τῆς οἰκουμένης ὅλης, - ὅτι ἐτήρησας τὸν λόγον τῆς ὑπομονῆς μου, κἀγώ σε τηρήσω ἐκ τῆς ὥρας τοῦ πειρασμοῦ τῆς μελλούσης ἔρχεσθαι ἐπὶ τῆς οἰκουμένης ὅλης, πειράσαι τοὺς κατοικοῦντας ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς.
Rev.12.9!19 τὴν οἰκουμένην ὅλην, - καὶ ἐβλήθη ὁ δράκων ὁ μέγας, ὁ ὄφις ὁ ἀρχαῖος, ὁ καλούμενος Διάβολος καὶ Ὁ Σατανᾶς, ὁ πλανῶν τὴν οἰκουμένην ὅλην, ἐβλήθη εἰς τὴν γῆν, καὶ οἱ ἄγγελοι αὐτοῦ μετ’ αὐτοῦ ἐβλήθησαν.
Rev.16.14!12 τῆς οἰκουμένης ὅλης, - εἰσὶν γὰρ πνεύματα δαιμονίων ποιοῦντα σημεῖα, ἃ ἐκπορεύεται ἐπὶ τοὺς βασιλεῖς τῆς οἰκουμένης ὅλης, συναγαγεῖν αὐτοὺς εἰς τὸν πόλεμον τῆς ἡμέρας τῆς μεγάλης τοῦ Θεοῦ τοῦ Παντοκράτορος.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

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