Restrictive Adjectives

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Alan Bunning
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Re: Restrictive Adjectives

Post by Alan Bunning » May 6th, 2017, 9:18 am

Jonathan Robie wrote:
May 6th, 2017, 8:57 am
Is there a test I could apply to the GNT to identify all determiners? I have syntax trees for the GNT.
To identify them, they can essentially appear in three different places: before the article, always before all other descriptive adjectives, or after the noun. Words in the first and last category are easy to spot. It’s the second category where we need a greater volume of data than what we have in the NT to ensure that they are always occupying that spot.
Jonathan Robie wrote:
May 6th, 2017, 8:57 am
You can certainly search for individual words on Perseus, here's one way you can do it:

http://perseus.uchicago.edu/#GreekTexts

For instance, here are results for the three examples you named:
There are syntax trees for some Perseus texts here:

https://perseusdl.github.io/treebank_data/

There are others of varying quality scattered around the Web ...
Thanks, that's helpful.

Alan Bunning
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Re: Restrictive Adjectives

Post by Alan Bunning » May 6th, 2017, 9:28 am

Jonathan Robie wrote:
May 6th, 2017, 9:06 am
The morphology columns are largely the same as what Tauber or Robinson use. The syntax columns overlap a great deal with the labels we use in the syntax trees - are you also building trees?
Not sure if I will or not yet, but the greater granularity in the syntax labels should help me if I did.
Jonathan Robie wrote:
May 6th, 2017, 9:06 am
Our trees allow labels for class and type, which is more or less a subtype, for each syntactic function. I am slowly filling in the type for various things. For adjectives, I would be inclined to use (1) attributive, (2) predicative, and (3) substantive rather than ascriptive and restrictive, for reasons discussed in this thread. I'm not sure how best to treat participles used in the same way.
I put (2) and (3) under the noun role because they are adjectives being used as substantives in those cases. I use the ascriptive and restrictive subtypes for (1) attributive adjectives, because I find the greater granularity useful. But to each his own.

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Re: Restrictive Adjectives

Post by Jonathan Robie » May 6th, 2017, 9:50 am

Alan Bunning wrote:
May 6th, 2017, 9:28 am
Jonathan Robie wrote:
May 6th, 2017, 9:06 am
The morphology columns are largely the same as what Tauber or Robinson use. The syntax columns overlap a great deal with the labels we use in the syntax trees - are you also building trees?
Not sure if I will or not yet, but the greater granularity in the syntax labels should help me if I did.
Some of this exists in @type attributes - they are not yet documented, some have placeholders, and this part is definitely work in progress.
Alan Bunning wrote:
May 6th, 2017, 9:28 am
Jonathan Robie wrote:
May 6th, 2017, 9:06 am
For adjectives, I would be inclined to use (1) attributive, (2) predicative, and (3) substantive rather than ascriptive and restrictive, for reasons discussed in this thread. I'm not sure how best to treat participles used in the same way.
I put (2) and (3) under the noun role because they are adjectives being used as substantives in those cases. I use the ascriptive and restrictive subtypes for (1) attributive adjectives, because I find the greater granularity useful. But to each his own.
Yes, people will interpret things differently, because they see different things as important. In my case, I would see both positions as attributive adjectives, and I would distinguish them using queries that specify word order. I'm also a little allergic to the restrictive label because I am not sure that this word position is always restrictive. But David Allen Black seems to think it is, and you seem to as well, so naturally you would use different labels because you understand it differently.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Alan Bunning
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Re: Restrictive Adjectives

Post by Alan Bunning » May 6th, 2017, 10:15 am

Jonathan Robie wrote:
May 6th, 2017, 9:50 am
I'm also a little allergic to the restrictive label because I am not sure that this word position is always restrictive. But David Allen Black seems to think it is, and you seem to as well, so naturally you would use different labels because you understand it differently.
I don't always see it as restrictive either, but that is the label people were using. I would certainly be happier with a different label, but I still want to mark them somehow so I can easily find them.

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Re: Restrictive Adjectives

Post by Jonathan Robie » May 6th, 2017, 10:28 am

Alan Bunning wrote:
May 6th, 2017, 10:15 am
Jonathan Robie wrote:
May 6th, 2017, 9:50 am
I'm also a little allergic to the restrictive label because I am not sure that this word position is always restrictive. But David Allen Black seems to think it is, and you seem to as well, so naturally you would use different labels because you understand it differently.
I don't always see it as restrictive either, but that is the label people were using. I would certainly be happier with a different label, but I still want to mark them somehow so I can easily find them.
I would prefer a label that says something about the position, or perhaps mark it with a discourse feature of some kind. But I'm not sure what the best term is.

Going back to your original post, the example you gave was ο ανθρωπος κακος, and I think that is predicative, but I think you were probably searching for a term that would describe instances like ὁ ἄνθρωπος πρῶτος, which probably is not predicative? I don't know that term, maybe someone else here does. Maybe that term needs to be invented.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Alan Bunning
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Re: Restrictive Adjectives

Post by Alan Bunning » May 6th, 2017, 12:05 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:
May 6th, 2017, 10:28 am
Alan Bunning wrote:
May 6th, 2017, 10:15 am
Jonathan Robie wrote:
May 6th, 2017, 9:50 am
I'm also a little allergic to the restrictive label because I am not sure that this word position is always restrictive. But David Allen Black seems to think it is, and you seem to as well, so naturally you would use different labels because you understand it differently.
I don't always see it as restrictive either, but that is the label people were using. I would certainly be happier with a different label, but I still want to mark them somehow so I can easily find them.
I would prefer a label that says something about the position, or perhaps mark it with a discourse feature of some kind. But I'm not sure what the best term is.

Going back to your original post, the example you gave was ο ανθρωπος κακος, and I think that is predicative, but I think you were probably searching for a term that would describe instances like ὁ ἄνθρωπος πρῶτος, which probably is not predicative? I don't know that term, maybe someone else here does. Maybe that term needs to be invented.
Well, actually I was looking for a term for ο ανθρωπος ο κακος that would be more general purpose than restrictive. For ὁ ἄνθρωπος πρῶτος, πρῶτος would be an example of an ordinal determiner.

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Re: Restrictive Adjectives

Post by Jonathan Robie » May 7th, 2017, 8:22 am

Alan Bunning wrote:
May 6th, 2017, 12:05 pm
Well, actually I was looking for a term for ο ανθρωπος ο κακος that would be more general purpose than restrictive. For ὁ ἄνθρωπος πρῶτος, πρῶτος would be an example of an ordinal determiner.
Are you sure you want to classify adjectives and determiners the same way?

I think you have been arguing that determiners do not act like adjectives, they occupy different positions in a phrase and have different meaning when they occur in the same position in a clause. To me, that's an argument for distinct labels.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Alan Bunning
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Re: Restrictive Adjectives

Post by Alan Bunning » May 7th, 2017, 8:55 am

Jonathan Robie wrote:
May 7th, 2017, 8:22 am
Alan Bunning wrote:
May 6th, 2017, 12:05 pm
Well, actually I was looking for a term for ο ανθρωπος ο κακος that would be more general purpose than restrictive. For ὁ ἄνθρωπος πρῶτος, πρῶτος would be an example of an ordinal determiner.
Are you sure you want to classify adjectives and determiners the same way?

I think you have been arguing that determiners do not act like adjectives, they occupy different positions in a phrase and have different meaning when they occur in the same position in a clause. To me, that's an argument for distinct labels.
Yes, they are distinct. Ever since I showed the four different patterns in my original post, it seems people have been mostly posting about pattern 3 (ο ανθρωπος ο κακος) or pattern 4 (ο ανθρωπος κακος) and then sometimes confusing which one someone was referring to. Only pattern 3 is usually called “restrictive” and I would be willing to accept a different label for that if someone has a better one. I had asked if pattern 4 could also be called “restrictive”, but after all of the posts, I am accepting that pattern 4 should be viewed as predicate adjectives (regardless of how they are sometimes translated), but that is only when they are adjectives. When a determiner follows the noun it modifies in what looks like pattern 4, it is not a predicate adjective, that is one of the three normal positions that a determiner can occupy, and it is marked as a determiner in my parsing scheme. Hopefully, that clarifies things a bit.

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Re: Restrictive Adjectives

Post by Jonathan Robie » May 7th, 2017, 3:03 pm

Alan Bunning wrote:
May 7th, 2017, 8:55 am
Yes, they are distinct. Ever since I showed the four different patterns in my original post, it seems people have been mostly posting about pattern 3 (ο ανθρωπος ο κακος) or pattern 4 (ο ανθρωπος κακος) and then sometimes confusing which one someone was referring to.
Fair summary.
Alan Bunning wrote:
May 7th, 2017, 8:55 am
Only pattern 3 is usually called “restrictive” and I would be willing to accept a different label for that if someone has a better one.
I don't think it's accurate to say that it is "usually called restrictive" - Smyth, BDR, Funk, Goetschius, Robertson, Mounce, and Wallace all describe this position without using that term. Mounce talks about the "first attributive position" and the "second attributive position", which seem like reasonable terms that don't imply more than they should about the meaning. Or perhaps 'preceding attributive position' and 'following attributive position', describing the position of the adjective with respect to the noun? Or even 'between' and 'following'?

Would it help to provide examples where I doubt that the meaning is restrictive?
Alan Bunning wrote:
May 7th, 2017, 8:55 am
I had asked if pattern 4 could also be called “restrictive”, but after all of the posts, I am accepting that pattern 4 should be viewed as predicate adjectives (regardless of how they are sometimes translated), but that is only when they are adjectives. When a determiner follows the noun it modifies in what looks like pattern 4, it is not a predicate adjective, that is one of the three normal positions that a determiner can occupy, and it is marked as a determiner in my parsing scheme. Hopefully, that clarifies things a bit.
I think we are on the same page there.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Alan Bunning
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Re: Restrictive Adjectives

Post by Alan Bunning » May 7th, 2017, 10:55 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:
May 7th, 2017, 3:03 pm
Would it help to provide examples where I doubt that the meaning is restrictive?
I wouldn't mind seeing a list of examples that aren't restrictive that follow the ο ανθρωπος ο κακος pattern.

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