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Re: Copulative verbs

Posted: May 19th, 2017, 11:22 am
by Michael Sharpnack
timothy_p_mcmahon wrote:
May 18th, 2017, 7:07 pm
The difference here is that the copula does not take a direct object. It takes a subject complement (in the nominative).
Ok, thanks, I think I'm starting to get it.
RandallButh wrote:
May 19th, 2017, 2:22 am
Your sentence Μιχαηλ μελλει γενεσθαι πατερ is correct except that πατερ is actually vocative
So we fix it:

Μιχαηλ μέλλει γενέσθαι πατήρ

Michael is about to be a father.
Right, got my eta and epsilon mixed up there. On a side note, Dr. Buth, I picked up your living Koine method, and I love it. I find myself saying the phrases like "το ποτεριον επι της τραπεζης εισι" all the time, and getting eye-rolls from my wife :D .
Jonathan Robie wrote:
May 19th, 2017, 8:51 am
No - let's look at the internal structure of this:

s Μιχαηλ
v μέλλει
o
vc γενέσθαι
p πατήρ


So ... reasoning from that, what do you think the subject and predicate of γένωνται are in Matthew 4:3?

Matt 4:3 εἰπὲ ἵνα οἱ λίθοι οὗτοι ἄρτοι γένωνται.
First, vc= verb complement? and p= predicate?

Matt 4:3 καὶ προσελθὼν ὁ πειράζων εἶπεν αὐτῷ· Εἰ υἱὸς εἶ τοῦ θεοῦ, εἰπὲ ἵνα οἱ λίθοι οὗτοι ἄρτοι γένωνται.

I would say the subject of γένωνται is οἱ λίθοι οὗτοι and the predicate ἄρτοι? Rigidly, I would say: "Speak, in order that these stones may become bread.

Re: Copulative verbs

Posted: May 19th, 2017, 2:21 pm
by RandallButh
I used Accordance. There were many hits (50-100?) and examples across a range of meanings. Both μελλειν ειναι and μελλειν γενεσθαι were amply attested.

Re: Copulative verbs

Posted: May 19th, 2017, 2:27 pm
by Robert Crowe
Michael Sharpnack wrote:
May 19th, 2017, 11:22 am
Jonathan Robie wrote: ↑May 19th, 2017, 1:51 pm
No - let's look at the internal structure of this:

s Μιχαηλ
v μέλλει
o
vc γενέσθαι
p πατήρ


So ... reasoning from that, what do you think the subject and predicate of γένωνται are in Matthew 4:3?

Matt 4:3 εἰπὲ ἵνα οἱ λίθοι οὗτοι ἄρτοι γένωνται.
First, vc= verb complement? and p= predicate?
A moot point with the tagging. I would refer to the assertion μὲλλει γενὲσθαι πατὴρ as the predicate (P) where πατὴρ is the predicate nominative (PN).

Re: Copulative verbs

Posted: May 19th, 2017, 4:12 pm
by Jonathan Robie
Michael Sharpnack wrote:
May 19th, 2017, 11:22 am
First, vc= verb complement? and p= predicate?
vc = "verbal copula" = a copulative verb.
p = predicate

Matt 4:3 καὶ προσελθὼν ὁ πειράζων εἶπεν αὐτῷ· Εἰ υἱὸς εἶ τοῦ θεοῦ, εἰπὲ ἵνα οἱ λίθοι οὗτοι ἄρτοι γένωνται.
Michael Sharpnack wrote:
May 19th, 2017, 11:22 am
I would say the subject of γένωνται is οἱ λίθοι οὗτοι and the predicate ἄρτοι? Rigidly, I would say: "Speak, in order that these stones may become bread.
Yup.

Re: Copulative verbs

Posted: May 19th, 2017, 4:16 pm
by Jonathan Robie
Robert Crowe wrote:
May 19th, 2017, 2:27 pm
A moot point with the tagging. I would refer to the assertion μὲλλει γενὲσθαι πατὴρ as the predicate (P) where πατὴρ is the predicate nominative (PN).
Hmmm .... do you use verb phrases? In the Lowfat model, we do not have verb phrases, a clause is governed by a verb, and each constituent in the clause is labeled with its role. I think that fits the Greek language better. So I would rather not have the verb as part of the predicate.

Re: Copulative verbs

Posted: May 19th, 2017, 5:36 pm
by Robert Crowe
Jonathan Robie wrote:
May 19th, 2017, 4:16 pm
Robert Crowe wrote:
May 19th, 2017, 2:27 pm
A moot point with the tagging. I would refer to the assertion μὲλλει γενὲσθαι πατὴρ as the predicate (P) where πατὴρ is the predicate nominative (PN).
Hmmm .... do you use verb phrases? In the Lowfat model, we do not have verb phrases, a clause is governed by a verb, and each constituent in the clause is labeled with its role. I think that fits the Greek language better. So I would rather not have the verb as part of the predicate.
Sorry, I am not familiar with the Lowfat model. I am aware of the notion that the verb and any auxiliaries are taken as the predicate; whereas the arguments (subject, complement, or object) are excluded. Your labelling sets this ass about face. Anyway each to their own rheumatism.