Catholic (καθόλου (katholou)).

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David Solomon
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Catholic (καθόλου (katholou)).

Post by David Solomon » July 25th, 2017, 8:13 am

Hi,

What is more accurate meaning of the word "καθόλου" (Catholic) Universal or Whole

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Catholic (καθόλου (katholou)).

Post by Jonathan Robie » July 26th, 2017, 8:45 am

solomon1 wrote:
July 25th, 2017, 8:13 am
What is more accurate meaning of the word "καθόλου" (Catholic) Universal or Whole
You can see several definitions for the word here: καθόλου. Just click among the tabs.

It's only used one in the New Testament, μή καθόλου in Acts 4:18 means "not at all". It is used a handful of times in the Septuagint.

It's possible that you are interested in later usage in the creeds? In the creeds, it refers to the universal scope of the church. Just exactly what you think that means may depend on your theology of the church and its relationship to particular denominations - and that's way outside the scope of B-Greek.

Here are some definitions for biblical usage:
Thayers wrote:(i. e. καθ' ὅλου ( as it is written in authors before Aristotle (Liddell and Scott))), adverb, wholly, entirely, at all: Act 4:18. ((Exo 22:11); Eze 13:3, Eze 13:22; Amo 3:3, Amo 3:4; Xenophon, Plato, Demosthenes, Aristotle, and following.)
Abbott-Smith wrote:καθόλου ( = καθ᾿ ὅλον and so in cl . bef. Arist .), adv. ,

[in LXX : Exo 22:11 (10) Amo 3:3-4; Eze 13:3; Eze 13:22; Eze 17:14 ( τὸ κ , μή = H1115), Da LXX TH Da 3:50 * ;]

on the whole, in general: μή κ ., not at all, Act 4:18. †
LSJ wrote:1. on the whole, in general, = καθ’ ὅλου (as it shd. perh. be written), Epist.Philipp. ap. D. 18.77; κ. γράφειν, opp. κατὰ μέρος, Plb. 3.32.8; κ. εἰπεῖν Arist. Top. 156a13, Plu. 2.397c, etc.; οἱ κ. λόγοι general statements, opp. οἱ ἐπὶ μέρους, Arist. EN 1107a30 (but in Roman times, accounts kept by the central government, = Lat. summae rationes, OGI 715.3 (Alexandria), D.C. 79.21, etc.); τοῦτο γάρ ἐστι κ. μᾶλλον too general, Arist. Pol. 1265a31, cf. GA 748a8; ἡ τῶν κ. πραγμάτων σύνταξις general history, Plb. 1.4.2; τὸ κ. D.S. 1.77, Plu. 2.569f; τὸ κ. τῆς μοχθηρίας, opp. τὸ πρὸς ἡμᾶς, ib.468e; οὐδ’ οὗτος ἀποφαίνει κ. τὸ καταλειφθέν the whole amount left, D. 27.43; ἐν τῷ κ. in general, speaking generally, Ath. 1.30e, Arr. Epict. 1.8.8, al.

2. in the Logic of Arist., of terms, τὸ κ. general, opp. τὸ καθ’ ἕκαστον (singular), λέγω δὲ κ. μὲν ὃ ἐπὶ πλειόνων πέφυκε κατηγορεῖσθαι, καθ’ ἕκαστον δὲ ὃ μή Int. 17a39, cf. Metaph. 1023b29; opp. τὸ κατὰ μέρος, Rh. 1357b1, al.; hence, τὰ κ. universal truths, ἡ ποίησις μᾶλλον τὰ κ., ἡ δ’ ἱστορία τὰ καθ’ ἕ. λέγει Po. 1451b7; = γνῶμαι, ib. 1450b12; esp. commensurate predicate, ὃ ἂν κατὰ παντός τε ὑπάρχῃ καὶ καθ’ αὑτὸ καὶ ᾗ αὐτό APo. 73b26; as Adj., of propositions, λόγος κ. a universal statement, opp. ἐν μέρει, κατὰ μέρος (particular), ἀδιόριστος (infinite), APr. 24a17 sq.; of inference, ἡ κ. ἀπόδειξις universal proof, opp. κατὰ μέρος, APo. 85a13; hence, as predicate, κ. εἰσὶν [ αἱ ἀρχαί ] Metaph. 1003a7; as Adv., κ. ἀποφαίνεσθαι ἐπὶ τοῦ κ. Int. 17b5, al.

3. completely, entirely, Plb. 1.20.2; οὐδὲ κ. μακρὸν πλοῖον no warships at all, ib. 13, cf. LXX Da. 3.50, al.; μηδὲ τέχνην εἶναι τὸ κ. τοῦ πείθειν Phld. Rh. 1.327S. (Written κατὰ ὅλου Pl. Men. 77a.)
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

David Solomon
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Re: Catholic (καθόλου (katholou)).

Post by David Solomon » July 26th, 2017, 6:22 pm

Acts 9:31 has phrase "ekklēsia kath’ holēs".

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Catholic (καθόλου (katholou)).

Post by Jonathan Robie » July 27th, 2017, 9:09 am

solomon1 wrote:
July 26th, 2017, 6:22 pm
Acts 9:31 has phrase "ekklēsia kath’ holēs".
I edited a lot out of your post before approving it - we want to stay focused on the meaning of Greek texts.

Here's the text of Acts 9:31:
Ἡ μὲν οὖν ἐκκλησία καθ’ ὅλης τῆς Ἰουδαίας καὶ Γαλιλαίας καὶ Σαμαρείας εἶχεν εἰρήνην οἰκοδομουμένη, καὶ πορευομένη τῷ φόβῳ τοῦ κυρίου καὶ τῇ παρακλήσει τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος ἐπληθύνετο.
Ἡ ἐκκλησία καθ’ ὅλης τῆς Ἰουδαίας καὶ Γαλιλαίας καὶ Σαμαρείας refers to "the church throughout all of Judea and Galilee and Samaria". In this context, καθ’ ὅλης means "throughout".
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

David Solomon
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Re: Catholic (καθόλου (katholou)).

Post by David Solomon » July 29th, 2017, 8:08 am

Is the phrase "ἐκκλησία καθ’ ὅλης" can also be translated as Catholic church.

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Catholic (καθόλου (katholou)).

Post by Jonathan Robie » July 29th, 2017, 11:40 am

solomon1 wrote:
July 29th, 2017, 8:08 am
Is the phrase "ἐκκλησία καθ’ ὅλης" can also be translated as Catholic church.
In this sentence, καθ’ ὅλης τῆς Ἰουδαίας καὶ Γαλιλαίας καὶ Σαμαρείας means "throughout Judea, Galilee, and Samaria". Let's look at the other places καθ’ ὅλης is used in the New Testament. I think it would be really hard to argue that it refers to the Catholic Church.
Luke 4:14 wrote:Καὶ ὑπέστρεψεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς ἐν τῇ δυνάμει τοῦ πνεύματος εἰς τὴν Γαλιλαίαν. καὶ φήμη ἐξῆλθεν καθ’ ὅλης τῆς περιχώρου περὶ αὐτοῦ.
Luke 23:5 wrote:οἱ δὲ ἐπίσχυον λέγοντες ὅτι Ἀνασείει τὸν λαὸν διδάσκων καθ’ ὅλης τῆς Ἰουδαίας, καὶ ἀρξάμενος ἀπὸ τῆς Γαλιλαίας ἕως ὧδε.
Acts 9:31 wrote:Ἡ μὲν οὖν ἐκκλησία καθ’ ὅλης τῆς Ἰουδαίας καὶ Γαλιλαίας καὶ Σαμαρείας εἶχεν εἰρήνην οἰκοδομουμένη, καὶ πορευομένη τῷ φόβῳ τοῦ κυρίου καὶ τῇ παρακλήσει τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος ἐπληθύνετο.
Acts 9:42 wrote:γνωστὸν δὲ ἐγένετο καθ’ ὅλης τῆς Ἰόππης, καὶ ἐπίστευσαν πολλοὶ ἐπὶ τὸν κύριον.
Acts 10:37 wrote:ὑμεῖς οἴδατε τὸ γενόμενον ῥῆμα καθ’ ὅλης τῆς Ἰουδαίας, ἀρξάμενος ἀπὸ τῆς Γαλιλαίας μετὰ τὸ βάπτισμα ὃ ἐκήρυξεν Ἰωάννης
The Nicene Creed uses the word καθολικός:
Εἰς μίαν, Ἁγίαν, Καθολικὴν καὶ Ἀποστολικὴν Ἐκκλησίαν.
καθολικός is not found in the Greek New Testament or Septuagint. You can get a pretty good overview of the first uses of the term and the evolution of its meaning here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_(term)

It was not used as the name of a specific denomination or group of Christians until well after the New Testament period. And the Catholic Church is not the only one that claims to be the Ἐκκλησία Καθολική - several denominations believe that their own denomination is identical with the original universal church, from which all other denominations broke away.

We won't get into that kind of debate on B-Greek. But it does bear on the meaning of the word.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

David Solomon
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Re: Catholic (καθόλου (katholou)).

Post by David Solomon » July 29th, 2017, 7:14 pm

The following word 3648. holokléros translates to complete in every part, sound, perfect. This word has the word "Whole" in it. Looks similar to καθόλου.

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Catholic (καθόλου (katholou)).

Post by Jonathan Robie » July 29th, 2017, 7:27 pm

David Solomon wrote:
July 29th, 2017, 7:14 pm
The following word 3648. holokléros translates to complete in every part, sound, perfect. This word has the word "Whole" in it. Looks similar to καθόλου.
There are a bunch of related words, just as in English - whole, wholly, whole-hearted, whole milk, etc.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

David Solomon
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Joined: July 23rd, 2017, 5:17 pm

Re: Catholic (καθόλου (katholou)).

Post by David Solomon » July 30th, 2017, 3:32 pm

The Shema prayer : Mark 12:29 : Jesus called Shema prayer The Great Commandment:

"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one."

The Greek word "ὅλης" is used 4 time in Mark 12:29-30.

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'

Hebrew word Salem (שָׁלֵם) came in the Bible 28 time but it is translated to 10 or more Greek words.

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/8003.htm

1 Kings 8:61
Let your heart therefore be wholly true to the LORD our God, walking in his statutes and keeping his commandments, as at this day.”

Both of these verse in the Bible have a concept of believing/Loving God with whole-heart.


The Hebrew word Salem most of the time get translated to Greek G5046(τέλειος) and some times to #3648 (ὁλόκληρος). The words are used in the Bible for a person with "completeness of Christian character."


Because Salem is also link with (ὁλόκληρος) it can be link with the Greek word "ὅλης". Which is the core word in καθόλου (Catholic).

The Hebrew word Salem is used 1 Kings 8:61. Hebrew word כֹּל H3605. kol is used in the Shema prayer.

The following bible hub page shows that (ὁλόκληρος) and (τέλειος) are synonyms. My question is that the words καθόλου and (ὁλόκληρος) are synonyms?

http://biblehub.com/greek/3648.htm

David Solomon
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Joined: July 23rd, 2017, 5:17 pm

Re: Catholic (καθόλου (katholou)).

Post by David Solomon » July 30th, 2017, 3:49 pm

The following is a link to a book called "Teleios Man: Your Ultimate Identity". In other words the Ultimate Identity of a follower of Jesus is ""Teleios". The use of Greek word "Teleios" in the Bible represent the identity of a Christian.

https://www.amazon.com/Telios-Man-Your- ... 1935245295

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