Catholic (καθόλου (katholou)).

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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Catholic (καθόλου (katholou)).

Post by Jonathan Robie » July 30th, 2017, 4:20 pm

David Solomon wrote:
July 30th, 2017, 3:49 pm
The following is a link to a book called "Teleios Man: Your Ultimate Identity". In other words the Ultimate Identity of a follower of Jesus is ""Teleios". The use of Greek word "Teleios" in the Bible represent the identity of a Christian.
Ummm, no. You are doing free association and looking at book covers to try to make guesses about the Greek language. That's not what the word means.

Beyond that: This isn't really what the beginner's forum is for. It's for teaching people Greek as they learn how to read complete sentences, not for answering questions about individual words. If we go down that path, we will quickly become a place where most of the posts come from people who do not have any working knowledge of Greek and aren't seriously trying to acquire it.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

David Solomon
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Re: Catholic (καθόλου (katholou)).

Post by David Solomon » July 30th, 2017, 8:55 pm

Hi Jonathan,

I am not saying that the literal meaning of "Teleios" is a Christian. But figurative it may mean that. The reason I am thinking this is because even Strong's Concordance the word "Teleios" is defined as "completeness of Christian character." The literal meaning of "Teleios" and ὁλόκληρος G3648. holokléros are similar that is "complete in every part, sound, perfect, entire."

Teleios
http://biblehub.com/greek/5046.htm


ὁλόκληρος
http://biblehub.com/greek/3648.htm

David Solomon
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Re: Catholic (καθόλου (katholou)).

Post by David Solomon » July 30th, 2017, 9:10 pm

As an example the story of the "The Rich Young Man". In Matthew 19:21 the word "Teleios". In King James Version of the Bible the word is translated to "Perfect". But figuratively it may be a "Perfect Christian."


Matthew 19:20-21:
20“All these I have kept,” said the young man. “What do I still lack?”

21Jesus told him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me.”

David Solomon
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Re: Catholic (καθόλου (katholou)).

Post by David Solomon » July 30th, 2017, 9:57 pm

"The Nicene Creed uses the word καθολικός:"


Looks like the word "καθολικός" is also translates as "on the whole, in general”.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%C ... F%8C%CF%82

David Solomon
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Re: Catholic (καθόλου (katholou)).

Post by David Solomon » July 30th, 2017, 10:25 pm

It looks like the Greek word for Universal is "παγκόσμιος" not "καθολικός" or "κᾰθόλου".

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Catholic (καθόλου (katholou)).

Post by Stephen Hughes » July 31st, 2017, 1:38 am

David Solomon wrote:
July 30th, 2017, 10:25 pm
It looks like the Greek word for Universal is "παγκόσμιος" not "καθολικός" or "κᾰθόλου".
"Universal" (all inclusion) in the English idiom has implied limitations from context. Those limitations are spelt out in the Greek by a different choice of words that are based on what English implies. πανοικί "with all his family" is not broad enough a context to use "universal" in English, but on a scale of small to big of words based on παν- it might be the beginning. παγκόσμιος is at the other end of that scale of what is included. To put that the other way, usinng "universal" or not to translate a concept of "all inclusiveness" expressed by a Greek παν- word depends on the correct rules and customs (idiom) of the English language. If we translated πανοικί as "universally for all household members", it could well explain the Greek, but strains the English. In smaller contexts, English uses "whole".

παγκόσμιος raises another issue of synonymy. κόσμος in way that word παγκόσμιος incorporates it means "(the people of) the world" (human civilisation, and life) in both the classical and Modern periods, rather than physical geographical regions. It might be limited to universal human activities rather than all encompassing regions of the globe.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Eeli Kaikkonen
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Re: Catholic (καθόλου (katholou)).

Post by Eeli Kaikkonen » July 31st, 2017, 4:30 am

David Solomon wrote:
July 30th, 2017, 8:55 pm
I am not saying that the literal meaning of "Teleios" is a Christian. But figurative it may mean that. The reason I am thinking this is because even Strong's Concordance the word "Teleios" is defined as "completeness of Christian character." The literal meaning of "Teleios" and ὁλόκληρος G3648. holokléros are similar that is "complete in every part, sound, perfect, entire."
First, Strong's Concordance isn't a good resource. It's a concordance for those who don't know Greek and honestly, it usually doesn't lead to anything good.

Second, youre confusing (especially in your next post's examples) the meaning of a word and the context where it's used. For example if the phrase "black cat" is used somewhere you wouldn't say that "black" can mean "black cat" or that "cat" can mean "black cat". "teleios" can be used in context where it referes to complete, whole or perfect Christian or Christianity, but it itself doesn't mean that.

You're making a word study fallacy. See e.g. viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1058.

David Solomon
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Re: Catholic (καθόλου (katholou)).

Post by David Solomon » July 31st, 2017, 7:06 am

Hi Eeli ,

I agree with your comment that "teleios" by itself does not mean "perfect Christian". But the way it is used in the Bible in old Testament for the word Salem (likely old name of Jerusalem) it can figuratively mean some one who is "complete with God" or "whose heat is wholly devoted to God". In the Old Testament the word Teleios is often translation of the Hebrew word Salem. eg. 1 Kings 8:61 , 1 Kings 11:4 , 1 Kings 15:3 , 1 Kings 15:14 , 2 Kings 20:3 , 1 Chronicles 12:39 , 1 Chronicles 29:9 , 1 Chronicles 29:19, 2 Chronicles 16:9 , 2 Chronicles 19:9 , 2 Chronicles 25:2 etc. The way it is used in the New Testament can aslo have the same meaning of "a person whose heat is wholly devoted to God"

Same way the word Greek word ὅλος G3650. holos is used for loving the God with whole heart. For example in Shema prayers (Deut. 6:4-9) and in New Testament (Mark 12:29-30).


For example the Arabic word Muslim by it self means "one who submit" but figuratively or in context of the use it means "one who submit to God".

David Solomon
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Re: Catholic (καθόλου (katholou)).

Post by David Solomon » July 31st, 2017, 7:14 am

In similar way it may be possible the the word ὁλόκληρος which is synonyms for Teleios can be used. The καθόλου similarly may just mean a complete person. So Teleios, ὁλόκληρος may be καθόλου figuratively or in context may mean "a person whose heart is completely devoted to God"

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Catholic (καθόλου (katholou)).

Post by Jonathan Robie » July 31st, 2017, 7:29 am

David Solomon wrote:
July 31st, 2017, 7:14 am
In similar way it may be possible the the word ὁλόκληρος which is synonyms for Teleios can be used. The καθόλου similarly may just mean a complete person. So Teleios, ὁλόκληρος may be καθόλου figuratively or in context may mean "a person whose heart is completely devoted to God"
Can you show me some authentic Greek texts where καθόλου is used to indicate a complete person? That's the first step for establishing this meaning, if it exists.

You might be interested in Trench's article on ὁλόκληρος, τέλειος, ἄρτιος. But as you read it, please try to distinguish (1) the meaning of the word per se from (2) the theological meaning the word is given.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

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