Catholic (καθόλου (katholou)).

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David Solomon
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Re: Catholic (καθόλου (katholou)).

Post by David Solomon » July 31st, 2017, 8:25 am

Hi Jonathan,
Can you show me some authentic Greek texts where καθόλου is used to indicate a complete person?
I can not but ὁλόκληρος, τέλειος are translated as complete person. That is I want to know that the word καθόλου can also mean that.

The Greek word ὁλόκληρος, τέλειος are strongly link with the Hebrew words ( שָׁלֵם, תָּמִים) Salem (Whole)H8003 and H8549. tamim. I think also with Hכֹּל 3606. kol (All).

The Hebrew Word Salem H8003 share the same root word with Arabic word "Muslim". So the meaning of Greek word τέλειος is similar to Arabic word "Muslim".

The link below show the root of Hebrew and Arabic words "SLM". You can see that the Hebrew word Shalem (שלם) – whole, complete, Mushlam (מושלם) – perfect are there and the Arabic muslim 'One who submits' are from the same root.

The Greek Symmachus renders Hebrew Mushlam (מושלם) – perfect to Greek, "Ὡς ὁ τέλειος" hōs ho teleios;

David Solomon
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Re: Catholic (καθόλου (katholou)).

Post by David Solomon » July 31st, 2017, 8:31 am

I forgot to put the link for Hebrew root SLM. See the link below.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0-L-M

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Catholic (καθόλου (katholou)).

Post by Jonathan Robie » July 31st, 2017, 12:08 pm

David Solomon wrote:
July 31st, 2017, 8:25 am
Hi Jonathan,
Can you show me some authentic Greek texts where καθόλου is used to indicate a complete person?
I can not but ὁλόκληρος, τέλειος are translated as complete person. That is I want to know that the word καθόλου can also mean that.
I don't know. It's only used once in the Greek New Testament. But I suspect ὁλόκληρος or τέλειος are much more likely to be used to describe a person. And the three words mean different things.

καθόλου means "on the whole" or "in general". If it were used to describe a person, I would think it would mean something like "the person as a whole". But it also feels unlikely as a phrase. I would want to see actual uses of it before speculating.

Trenchard explains the meaning of the first two. Ὁλόκληρος means "whole and entire in all its parts":
Ὁλόκληρος signifies first, as its etymology declares, that which retains all which was allotted to it at the first (Ezek. 15:5), being thus whole and entire in all its parts (ὁλόκληρος καὶ παντελής, Philo, De Merc. Meret. 1); with nothing necessary for its completeness wanting. Thus Darius would have been well pleased not to have taken Babylon if only Zopyrus, who had maimed himself to carry out the stratagem by which it fell, were ὁλόκληρος still (Plutarch, Reg. et Imper. Apoph.). Again, unhewn stones, as having lost nothing in the process of shaping and polishing, are ὁλόκληροι (Deut. 27:6; 1 Macc. 4:47); perfect weeks are ἑβδομάδες ὁλόκληροι (Lev. 23:15); and a man ἐν ὁλοκλήρῳ δέρματι is ‘in a whole skin’ (Lucian, Philops. 8). We next find ὁλόκληρος expressing that integrity of body, with nothing redundant, nothing deficient (cf. Lev. 21:17-23), which was required of the Levitical priests as a condition of their ministering at the altar, which also might not be wanting in the sacrifices they offered. In both these senses Josephus uses it (Antt. iii. 12. 2); as does Philo continually. It is with him the standing word for this integrity of the priests and of the sacrifice, to the necessity of which he often recurs, seeing in it, and rightly, a mystical significance, and that these are ὁλόκληροι θυσίαι ὁλοκλήρῳ Θεῷ (De Vict. 2; De Vict. Off. 1, ὁλόκληρον καὶ παντελῶς μώμων ἀμέτοχον: De Agricul. 29; De Cherub. 28; cf. Plato, Legg. vi. 759 c). Τέλειος is used by Homer (Il. 1. 66) in the same sense.

It is not long before ὁλόκληρος and ὁλοκληρία, like the Latin ‘integer’ and ‘integritas,’ are transferred from bodily to mental and moral entireness (Suetonius, Claud. 4). The only approach to this in the Apocrypha is Wisd. xv. 3, ὁλόκληρος δικαιοσύνη: but in an interesting and important passage in the Phoedrus of Plato (250 c; cf. Tim. 44 c), ὁλόκληρος expresses the perfection of man before the Fall; I mean, of course, the Fall as Plato contemplated it; when to men, as yet ὁλόκληροι καὶ ἀπαθεῖς κακῶν, were vouchsafed ὁλόκληρα φάσματα, as contrasted with those weak partial glimpses of the Eternal Beauty, which are all that to most men are now vouchsafed. That person then or thing is ὁλόκληρος, which is ‘omnibus numeris absolutus,’ or ἐν μηδενὶ λειπόμενος, as St. James himself (1:4) explains the word.
τέλειος means whole in the sense of "having become mature":
The various applications of τέλειος are all referable to the τέλος, which is its ground. In a natural sense the τέλειοι are the adult, who, having attained the full limits of stature, strength, and mental power within their reach, have in these respects attained their τέλος, as distinguished from the νέοι or παῖδες, young men or boys (Plato, Legg. xi. 929 c; Xenophon, Cyr. viii. 7. 6; Polybius, v. 29. 2). This image of full completed growth, as contrasted with infancy and childhood, underlies the ethical use of τέλειοι by St. Paul, he setting these over against the νήπιοι ἐν Χριστῷ (1 Cor. 2:6; 14:20; Ephes. 4:13, 14; Phil. 3:15; Heb. 5:14; cf. Philo, De Agricul. 2); they correspond in fact to the πατέρες of 1 John 2:13, 14, as distinct from the νεανίσκοι and παιδία. Nor is this ethical use of τέλειος confined to Scripture. The Stoics distinguished the τέλειος in philosophy from the προκόπτων, just as at 1 Chron. 25:8 the τέλειοι are set over against the μανθάνοντες. With the heathen, those also were τέλειοι who had been initiated into the mysteries; for just as the Lord’s Supper was called τὸ τέλειον (Bingham, Christ. Antiquities, i. 4. 3), because there was nothing beyond it, no privilege into which the Christian has not entered, so these τέλειοι of heathen initiation obtained their name as having been now introduced into the latest and crowning mysteries of all.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Catholic (καθόλου (katholou)).

Post by Jonathan Robie » July 31st, 2017, 12:10 pm

David Solomon wrote:
July 31st, 2017, 8:25 am
The Hebrew Word Salem H8003 share the same root word with Arabic word "Muslim". So the meaning of Greek word τέλειος is similar to Arabic word "Muslim".
No, that's not any kind of proof at all.

A pineapple is not similar to a pine tree or an apple. Words with related derivations often do not have similar meanings.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Catholic (καθόλου (katholou)).

Post by Stephen Hughes » July 31st, 2017, 12:35 pm

David Solomon wrote:
July 31st, 2017, 8:25 am
The Hebrew Word Salem H8003 share the same root word with Arabic word "Muslim". So the meaning of Greek word τέλειος is similar to Arabic word "Muslim".

The link below show the root of Hebrew and Arabic words "SLM". You can see that the Hebrew word Shalem (שלם) – whole, complete, Mushlam (מושלם) – perfect are there and the Arabic muslim 'One who submits' are from the same root.

The Greek Symmachus renders Hebrew Mushlam (מושלם) – perfect to Greek, "Ὡς ὁ τέλειος" hōs ho teleios;
If a Hebrew speaker heard the Abrabic word, or visa versa, then there might be an assumption that the word in the other language meant the same as what the cognate word meant in their own language.

That is not altogether uncommon. English speakers do that with French and German. A German says "Aktual", and an English speaker unfamiliar with the language assumes it means "actual", and vice versa. A Francophone says "personne" and an English speaker hears "person" and vice versa.

In the example that you've brought up, the difference in semantic domains between Hebrew and Arabic is the idea of "surrender", "resign to" - present in سَلَام, but not in שָׁלוֹם‎, which only means "perfect" or "complete". Looking logically at the meaning of the cognate words, "completion" and "perfection" are at the end of some process, while "surrender" is the beginning of captivity. Let me bring Joshua 11:19 up and discuss it, before it comes up. The verse reads: 19 לֹֽא־ הָיְתָ֣ה עִ֗יר אֲשֶׁ֤ר הִשְׁלִ֙ימָה֙ אֶל־ בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל בִּלְתִּ֥י הַחִוִּ֖י יֹשְׁבֵ֣י גִבְע֑וֹן אֶת־ הַכֹּ֖ל לָקְח֥וּ בַמִּלְחָמָֽה׃ (the verbal construction here is hiphil with אֶל.) The meaning of the type of peace that was made by every city and people was a "surrender" (with whatever meaning and associations that could mean at that time), because Joshua's army in Caanan was a conquering army. The word itself doesn't mean "surrender", but in that particular context the "making of peace" was a "surrender".

In cognate languages like French and German with English and even within the same language group with Hebrew and Arabic, the different languages are no less different languages.

About your mention of כֹּל / كُلّ there doesn't seem to be a lot of support for the common origin, except that they share a lam / lamed.

Also, could you please help me locate מֻשְׁלָם in Symmachus' Vorlage? All I can find is that in Isaiah 42:9 there is an unflattering mention of כִּמְשֻׁלָּ֔ם describing somebody "as one who is in the covenant of peace", but who is blind and deaf - the Hebrew preposition כְּ־‏ "like", "as" is cognate to the Arabic كَـ.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

David Solomon
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Re: Catholic (καθόλου (katholou)).

Post by David Solomon » July 31st, 2017, 12:52 pm

Thank you Jonathan. I will go over your comments in detail later today.

But quickly I want to say that the Hebrew Word שָׁלֵם Salem H8003 is a good translation of Greek word Teleios.

http://biblehub.com/greek/5046.htm


The word שָׁלֵם Salem H8003 means Whole, Complete.

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/8003.htm

Septuagint translate שָׁלֵם Salem H8003 to Teleios many times.

David Solomon
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Re: Catholic (καθόλου (katholou)).

Post by David Solomon » July 31st, 2017, 5:00 pm

Hi Stephen,


Your comment is very interesting. I will look at it in more detail later today.
locate מֻשְׁלָם in Symmachus' Vorlage? All I can find is that in Isaiah 42:9 there is an unflattering mention of כִּמְשֻׁלָּ֔ם describing somebody "as one who is in the covenant of peace", but who is blind and deaf - the Hebrew preposition כְּ־‏ "like", "as" is cognate to the Arabic كَـ
.

You can find it Isaiah 42:9. It is כִּמְשֻׁלָּ֔ם the first alphabet is a prefix "like". So it is like מְשֻׁלָּ֔ם.

The link below says that Symmachus renders (כמשׁלם kı̂meshullâm) to, Ὡς ὁ τέλειος hōs ho teleios;

Also if you look at Bishop Ellicott's Commentary in the link you will find the following. King Jame Version of the Bible translates it to "As he that is perfect". It is similar to Arabic Muslim. From the Bible you can also come withe the same Meaning as "to Submit of God".
As he that is perfect.—Strictly speaking, the devoted, or surrendered one. The Hebrew meshullam is interesting, as connected with the modern Moslem and Islam, the man resigned to the will of God.



http://biblehub.com/commentaries/isaiah/42-19.htm

David Solomon
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Re: Catholic (καθόλου (katholou)).

Post by David Solomon » July 31st, 2017, 5:13 pm

Hi Stephen ,
The word itself doesn't mean "surrender", but in that particular context the "making of peace" was a "surrender".
I think that looks correct "making of peace" can be viewed in some context as "surrender". So some the root word SLM sometime can be translated to peace as in your example Joshua 11:19.

It is the same root SLM. You can find the word Muslim and Hebrew Meshullam under the same root.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0-L-M

David Solomon
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Re: Catholic (καθόλου (katholou)).

Post by David Solomon » August 1st, 2017, 5:40 am

Hi Stephen ,

It is not in Isaiah 42:9 it is in Isaiah 42:19

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/isaiah/42-19.htm

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Catholic (καθόλου (katholou)).

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 1st, 2017, 5:47 am

Sorry. Let me make a correction. The reference to the verse I quoted is Isaiah 42:19

The LXX reads καὶ τίς τυφλὸς ἀλλ’ ἢ οἱ παῖδές μου καὶ κωφοὶ ἀλλ’ ἢ οἱ κυριεύοντες αὐτῶν καὶ ἐτυφλώθησαν οἱ δοῦλοι τοῦ θεοῦ.



The protosemitic triconsonantal root that you are referring to, David, is actually šlm. Refering to roots is a dubious practice. It was popular around the 19th century, but you should consider rationally what the claim about roots is actually about. There was a protosemitic language spoken over 7,000 years ago, which used the šlm root. Since then, languages developed in different geographical regions isolated from one another, then when they were compared they were found to be similar. So far so good. Then comes the slight of hand. The assumption that because there is a meaning that developed (or was retained) in one language that still uses the triconsonantal root, then it is possible to say that the same meaning is in other cognate languages too. As you go on in your Greek studies, you will find this same sort of 19th century cognate legacy in Greek too. It's just something you will have to work around.

You need to consider each language within its own system of communication. Hebrew is Hebrew, Greek is Greek and Arabic is Arabic. The word τέλειος is a Greek word. It is not defined by the Hebrew word that it was used to translate, and much less by an Arabic word that shared a consonantal root with the Hebrew word that it was once used to translate.

If you are wanting to find what τέλειος means in Greek sources, you need to study Greek and read widely covering a range of topics and authours. If you specifically want to find what it meant for Christians, you could read relevant Christian authours and see what they want it to mean. It is a process of seeing what somebody actually says about a word or concept in the work they are writing.

Good luck with your language study.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

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