Salem( τέλειος)

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David Solomon
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Joined: July 23rd, 2017, 5:17 pm

Salem( τέλειος)

Post by David Solomon » July 29th, 2017, 3:24 pm

τέλειος is used in Septuagint 1 Kings 8:61 for the translation of the Hebrew word Salem.

"Let your heart therefore be wholly devoted to the LORD our God, to walk in His statutes and to keep His commandments, as at this day."

The word Salem is translated to "Whole" but the Greek word for "Whole" is ὅλος.

So is the meaning of τέλειος similar to ὅλος.

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Salem( τέλειος)

Post by Jonathan Robie » July 29th, 2017, 3:50 pm

Hi Solomon,

First off, welcome to B-Greek! You're new here, and I'd like to tell you a few things about the way we do things.

Your question is about the basic meaning of words. That's what lexicons are for. This is the kind of thing you should look up in a Greek lexicon before asking on B-Greek. If you are confused by what you find in the lexicon and have questions about that, then it is appropriate to ask here. But B-Greek is not a place to ask questions about words before looking them up in a lexicon. And the purpose of the Beginner's Forum is to help beginners learn to read Greek texts, not to answer questions about individual Greek words:
In the Beginner's Forum, we welcome beginners who do not yet have a working knowledge of Biblical Greek, and are actively working to learn the language. We want to help. Even basic questions about the meaning of the Greek text are welcome in the Beginner's Forum, and there's no shame in mistakes. Beginners will be gently pushed toward learning these structures over time, pointed to textbooks and other aids that will help them, and coached in how to see these structures in a text. Learning a language is all about learning the structure signals, so we will try to help you learn what these signals are and how to recognize them in a text.
Are you working on learning Greek? What have you done so far? What do you need help with?

Also, we have a user name policy that you have to follow to continue to post here. Follow the instructions, and I can change your name for you.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

David Solomon
Posts: 26
Joined: July 23rd, 2017, 5:17 pm

Re: Salem( τέλειος)

Post by David Solomon » July 29th, 2017, 6:52 pm

Thank You Jonathan,

I am trying to learn Bible in Hebrew and Greek. I stared about a year ago mostly learning the Hebrew words but now I am look at New Testament. I am not familiar with Greek at all. I am look at some of the Hebrew word and trying to find out what Hebrew word they are translated to. I am using Google Translator and some Bible websites. Do I have to send you an e-mail or you can change my username to David Solomon.

Jonathan Robie
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Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:34 pm
Location: Durham, NC
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Re: Salem( τέλειος)

Post by Jonathan Robie » July 30th, 2017, 7:11 am

OK, I think the first step is to find some way to start learning Greek.

Google Translate is horrible for ancient Greek, I would stay away from that. Shirley Rollinson has a textbook here:

http://www.drshirley.org/greek/textbook02/contents.html

Micheal Palmer has a grammar here:

http://greek-language.com/grammar/
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

David Solomon
Posts: 26
Joined: July 23rd, 2017, 5:17 pm

Re: Salem( τέλειος)

Post by David Solomon » July 30th, 2017, 10:22 am

Thank You Jonathan . I will look at the links you posted.

Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Salem( τέλειος)

Post by Stephen Hughes » July 31st, 2017, 5:14 am

Jonathan Robie wrote:
July 29th, 2017, 3:50 pm
This is the kind of thing you should look up in a Greek lexicon ...
Just to add to what Jonathan says about looking things up in lexicons. He is telling you what to do. Let me give you some suggestions about how to do it.

You are wondering about the relationship between two foreign languages - Hebrew and Greek. In such cases you will If you look at BDB or another Hebrew lexicon in addition to a Greek lexicon. In BDB (or another Hebrew dictionary of your choice), you will see that the entry for the adjective שָׁלֵם (shalem - dot on the left is sin, dot on the right is shin) has been divided according the different meanings that it has and the different contexts it is used in. When using a lexicon, it is important to remember that a word has different meanings itself in the context of its own language - that is not an easy differentiation to make, but let me say that שָׁלֵם appears to have two meanings, the first "complete" (everything, everybody or every part of somebody or something present as it is), and the second "at peace". Those might be what a native speaker would consider the two meanings of the Hebrew to be. Because a bilingual dictionary - in the case of BDB it expresses the meaning of the Hebrew in English - has to work with another language, it uses many words to express meaning, and there is a degree of approximation. That is because in a bilingual dictionary, and the words in different languages don't always bring out the meaning in the same way. The different contexts each of those meanings are found in require different English glosses. That is done because of the requirements of the second language in the dictioinary - in our case English. A man whose body is intact is שָׁלֵם is "unharmed" or "safe", a stone that is as it is is "unhewn". for the second meaning that a native speaker might recognise - "at peace" (for an enemy), we find "whole" or "complete" in the verse that you are looking at.

To repeat that simply, the first meanig of שָׁלֵם means "whole", without modification, and the second meaning is whole "at (complete) peace with".

Your analysis of the relationship between Greek and Hebrew should consider the range meanings and contexts of the Hebrew. There may be as many Greek words needed to render the Hebrew as there are English. That will depend on the idiom of those two languages.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

David Solomon
Posts: 26
Joined: July 23rd, 2017, 5:17 pm

Re: Salem( τέλειος)

Post by David Solomon » August 1st, 2017, 6:32 pm

Hi Stephen,

Is there a chart or a table which shows which Greek Alphabets map to which Hebrew Alphabets.


Thanks

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3332
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Salem( τέλειος)

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 3rd, 2017, 10:14 am

David Solomon wrote:
August 1st, 2017, 6:32 pm
Is there a chart or a table which shows which Greek Alphabets map to which Hebrew Alphabets?
The alphabet is one good starting place for learning a language. Any introductory grammar will have a standard print version of the alphabet listed.

Cadmus is credited with the introduction of the Phoenecian alphabet to Greece. In adopting the alphabet it was adapted to new language primarily by placing vowels in-line rather than using a consonantal script. That was necessary because unlike the situation in Semitic languages were the primary lexical building blocks are the triconsonantal roots, Greek lexical roots are commonly differentiated based on the consonant and vowel combinations. If words like ἐκνεύσει "he will withdraw", ἱκανός "a fair number of", καινός "previously unused", κενός "without purpose" and κενῶς "in an unprofitable manner" were written in a consonant only script, they would all just be κνσ, but that is not a triconsonantal root that we can learn in Greek to give meaning to all five of those words.

Greek roots are comprised of both consonants and vowels. That is to say, the minimum information that an effective Greek alphabet needs to show also includes vowels. Cadmus' brilliance is that he used a script that did not contain vowels in a modified form to give us (readers) enough information to be able to represent Greek.

Because the Hebrew that you are used to, and the Greek that you are setting about learning have different phonemic structures in their vocabulary, there is not really a correspondence between the alphabets. There are different needs for them to be adequate.

You should learn the Greek alphabet as the Greek alphabet, tailored to Greek by Cadmus in the early stages of your learning. Comparisons with other alphabets are an interesting study, and considering the morphophonemic structure of the vocabulary in each language is a better approach than simple tabulated correspondences.

If you have a reasonable working vocabulary, and a mastery of the grammar then the demands of the language that were considered in the design of the alphabet will be more clearln
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Jonathan Robie
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Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:34 pm
Location: Durham, NC
Contact:

Re: Salem( τέλειος)

Post by Jonathan Robie » August 3rd, 2017, 10:41 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:
August 3rd, 2017, 10:14 am
The alphabet is one good starting place for learning a language. Any introductory grammar will have a standard print version of the alphabet listed.
Note that there is more than one way to pronounce the Greek alphabet. Many of us here use a variant on "restored pronunciation". Youtube has some videos that teach pronunciation, here is one that is good for individual letters:

The Greek Alphabet

And for diphthongs:

Greek Vowels and Diphthongs

Or if you are a handout kind of guy, check out the attached PDF. It is just a little different from these videos in pronunciation of a few things, there are variations on restored pronunciation, many of these variations are based on Randall Buth's work. This PDF tells you how I personally pronounce things in class. Pick one pronunciation and stick with it, at least at first.

To look things up in a lexicon, you need to know alphabetic order. I like the following mnemonic:

All Bigots Get Diarrhea Eventually. (αβγδε)
Zorro ate the ice cap. (ζηθικ)
Let's munch nuts excessively, OK? (λμνξο)
Pigs really stink terribly. (πρστ)
Under five chairs, psychiatrists wink. (υφχψω)

It plays a little fast and loose with pronunciation, but is easy to remember.
Greek pronunciation.pdf
(60.36 KiB) Downloaded 11 times
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

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