Using το to set off a quotation?

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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Using το to set off a quotation?

Post by Jonathan Robie » August 4th, 2017, 8:43 am

Here's a nice example from Mark 9:
Mark 9 wrote:ὁ δὲ εἶπεν· Ἐκ παιδιόθεν· 22 καὶ πολλάκις καὶ εἰς πῦρ αὐτὸν ἔβαλεν καὶ εἰς ὕδατα ἵνα ἀπολέσῃ αὐτόν· ἀλλ’ εἴ τι δύνῃ, βοήθησον ἡμῖν σπλαγχνισθεὶς ἐφ’ ἡμᾶς. 23 ὁ δὲ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτῷ· Τὸ Εἰ δύνῃ, πάντα δυνατὰ τῷ πιστεύοντι.
This was actually the first example I thought of, I couldn't find it yesterday because I had misremembered one of the words.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Alan Bunning
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Re: Using το to set off a quotation?

Post by Alan Bunning » August 13th, 2017, 8:31 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:
August 4th, 2017, 2:20 am
Alan Bunning wrote:
August 3rd, 2017, 9:40 am
Can το sometimes be used to set off a quotation in the same way οτι does? It looks to me like it does at: Matt. 19:18, Mark 9:23, Mark 12:33, 1Cor. 4:6, and maybe 2Cor. 1:17. Am I seeing a pattern here, or am I imagining something?
You could try using γὰρ or ὅτι, when you want to work a quotation into your argument. Alternatively, use τὸ when you want to work it into the syntax, and πού when you want to sound less like you're "giving them chapter and verse".
What about ινα? Can it also be used to set off a quotation?

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Using το to set off a quotation?

Post by Jonathan Robie » August 14th, 2017, 7:49 am

Alan Bunning wrote:
August 13th, 2017, 8:31 pm
What about ινα? Can it also be used to set off a quotation?
Hmmm, I'm not sure that all of these devices "set off a quotation", which is what quotation marks do in English. And they don't do the same thing. Off the top of my head, I would guess that:
  • After verbs of expression, ὅτι introduces a quotation. (It does not identify the end of a quotation, so it doesn't technically "set off a quotation").
  • το can be used to nominalize and topicalize a quotation or part of a quotation so that it can be referred to. It does not identify something as a quote, it relies on a reader who already has some reason to know that it is a quote, and it may not be a direct quote. For instance: ὁ δὲ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν· Τὸ Οὐ φονεύσεις, Οὐ μοιχεύσεις, Οὐ κλέψεις, Οὐ ψευδομαρτυρήσεις, Τίμα τὸν πατέρα καὶ τὴν μητέρα, καὶ Ἀγαπήσεις τὸν πλησίον σου ὡς σεαυτόν. ... not a direct quote, but a summary, and it is known as a quote only because it is familiar to the reader.
  • I have not studied these other devices for quotes, and I do not know if γὰρ, ὅτι (not following a verb of expression), πού, or ἵνα have any direct relationship to setting off quotes. See below.
In both English and Greek, you can work in quotes by invoking them, completely or in part, without explicit syntactic signals.

Often, quotes are used as part of a normal sentence, killing two birds with one stone. In that last sentence, you could say that the comma "sets off" the quote, but it is really just acting like a comma. I suspect that's what is happening when we see quotes with γὰρ, ὅτι (not following a verb of expression), πού, or ἵνα, but it would be really good to look carefully at a list of them and see what others have written about this.

Also: you often use quotes without setting them off at all. Curiosity skinned the cat out of the bag. You have to think a little, but that refers to three sayings that you can cite from memory. The sayings are not set off.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Using το to set off a quotation?

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 15th, 2017, 2:02 pm

Alan Bunning wrote:
August 13th, 2017, 8:31 pm
Stephen Hughes wrote:
August 4th, 2017, 2:20 am
You could try using γὰρ or ὅτι, when you want to work a quotation into your argument. Alternatively, use τὸ when you want to work it into the syntax, and πού when you want to sound less like you're "giving them chapter and verse".
What about ινα? Can it also be used to set off a quotation?
In a way, yes it can. So far as the Gospels are composed as a record of Jesus' life and ministry interlaced with a commentary on his life from Old Testament sources, the use of words, phrases or entire passages from the Old Testament were "quotations". Those quotations range from verbatim word-for-word cited / referenced verses to verbal allusions.

While we are retrospectively define the Christ as whatever Jesus was is what the Christ ought to be, Christians reasoning with Jews (eg Paul in Acts 17), need(ed) to show that Jesus life fulfilled the messianic expectations of the OT. As we know, the Gospels go further than the proof of messianic identity, and make the Son of God (equal with God) claims too.

Mark 4:12, ἵνα βλέποντες βλέπωσιν, καὶ μὴ ἴδωσιν· (Luke 8:10) is one of those later type of equality with God claims that the Gospel makes about Jesus. Jesus is portrayed as speaking in parables that is juxtaposed with the verse from Isaiah. If the ἵνα there is understood as part of the syntax, then it reads as a cause and effect relationship between the parables and the not understanding. If the ἵνα is a part of speech to set off a quotation - something along the lines of "and that was what was meant by", then the force of the quoted verse is a little different. Another alternative is that ἵνα there is just short for ἵνα ἡ γραφὴ πληρωθῇ - meaning that the individual word ἵνα carries the force of the full phrase, and then the grammar of the quote (βλέποντες βλέψετε καὶ οὐ μὴ ἴδητε / וּרְא֥וּ רָא֖וֹ וְאַל ־ תֵּדָֽעוּ ) is standardised to the subjunctive as required following the ἵνα. The characteristicly Hebraic double use of the verb for emphasis identifies this as a quote.

If you are going to consider what can be used to mark off a quotation, you will need to delve a little into typology to understand why quotations were used, and what form they take.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Using το to set off a quotation?

Post by Jonathan Robie » August 15th, 2017, 2:32 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:
August 15th, 2017, 2:02 pm
Mark 4:12, ἵνα βλέποντες βλέπωσιν, καὶ μὴ ἴδωσιν· (Luke 8:10) is one of those later type of equality with God claims that the Gospel makes about Jesus. Jesus is portrayed as speaking in parables that is juxtaposed with the verse from Isaiah. If the ἵνα there is understood as part of the syntax, then it reads as a cause and effect relationship between the parables and the not understanding. If the ἵνα is a part of speech to set off a quotation - something along the lines of "and that was what was meant by", then the force of the quoted verse is a little different. Another alternative is that ἵνα there is just short for ἵνα ἡ γραφὴ πληρωθῇ - meaning that the individual word ἵνα carries the force of the full phrase, and then the grammar of the quote (βλέποντες βλέψετε καὶ οὐ μὴ ἴδητε / וּרְא֥וּ רָא֖וֹ וְאַל ־ תֵּדָֽעוּ ) is standardised to the subjunctive as required following the ἵνα. The characteristicly Hebraic double use of the verb for emphasis identifies this as a quote.
I'm having a hard time seeing ἵνα as the thing that identifies the quote. If you did not know that it was a quote by other means, I don't think the use of ἵνα would tell you that it is a quote.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Using το to set off a quotation?

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 16th, 2017, 1:25 am

Jonathan Robie wrote:
August 15th, 2017, 2:32 pm
I'm having a hard time seeing ἵνα as the thing that identifies the quote. If you did not know that it was a quote by other means, I don't think the use of ἵνα would tell you that it is a quote.
Why did they need the quote identified? Anybody, for whom the quotation was significant, would have already have known where it was from.

I take the discussion here to be about what syntactic or structural devices are employed when embedding quotes. So far as I understand they range from situational (Jude 9) to mentioning the authour to "as the Bible says" to specifically marked fulfillment quotes to unmarked quotes to verbal allusions.

This Isaiah 6 quotation in Mark 4 / Luke 8 is a fulfillment one - the LORD spoke to his people in a way that they could hear Jesus speaking about sowing and not make sense of it, and could see people sowing grain all around them and not know the message of the Kingdom of God. Parables use imagery from everyday things, together with some other things spoken, and which need some explanation. Jesus' use of parables as a literary device to communicate the Gospel is said to be a fulfillment of Isaiah. The ἵνα means, "so that the Isaiah verse can become true", or "so that the Isaiah verse can be seen to be fulfilled". I read it as one of the fulfilment quotes that go beyond messianic expectation, to show divinity. There is the who will go for us and the voice of the Lord (אֲדֹנָי֙) spoke in Isaiah there, which was fulfilled in Jesus speaking. The ἵνα appears to indicate fulfillment of the prophesy quoted.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Using το to set off a quotation?

Post by Jonathan Robie » August 16th, 2017, 9:12 am

OK, I think we agree on how the Greek language works. To me, "set off a quotation" means something specific, and that's not quite what these devices do.

But there's not much value in quibbling about the metalanguage. It's more interesting to discuss the examples, and there are good ones in this thread.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

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