Question on Mt. 7:22

The forum for those who still struggle with morphology, syntax, and idiom, or who wish to discuss basic questions about the meaning of Greek texts, syntax, or words.
Forum rules
This is not a place for students to ask for the answers to their homework assignments. Users who do that may be banned.
Ed Martirosyan
Posts: 13
Joined: January 5th, 2018, 11:41 am
Location: Queens, NY

Question on Mt. 7:22

Post by Ed Martirosyan » January 5th, 2018, 8:23 pm

Hello :)

This is Mt.7:22 ...
πολλοὶ ἐροῦσίν μοι ἐν ἐκείνῃ τῇ ἡμέρᾳ Κύριε κύριε, οὐ τῷ σῷ ὀνόματι ἐπροφητεύσαμεν, καὶ τῷ σῷ ὀνόματι δαιμόνια ἐξεβάλομεν, καὶ τῷ σῷ ὀνόματι δυνάμεις πολλὰς ἐποιήσαμεν;
Greek translators added a question mark in the end (English semi-colon)

In English (ESV) - On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 

Can it be translated the following way by removing the question format?
"On that day many will tell me, 'Lord, Lord, we did not prophesy by your name, and expel demons by your name, and used many powers by your name".

I do not see any interrogative pronouns in the Greek text nor the ἆρα (687 Strong's) to suggest the sentence to be in a question format.
Are there any strictly grammatical reasons why this text is in a question format as translated by every translation that I see?

Thanks, :)
Ed

timothy_p_mcmahon
Posts: 223
Joined: June 3rd, 2011, 10:47 pm

Re: Question on Mt. 7:22

Post by timothy_p_mcmahon » January 6th, 2018, 12:22 am

Hello, Ed.

Contextually it's difficult for me to imagine your proposed rendering.

Grammatically, I'm not certain, but I'd guess the idea you're proposing would not be connected by και but by ουδε: "We did not prophesy... nor did we cast out... nor did we perform..."

Ed Martirosyan
Posts: 13
Joined: January 5th, 2018, 11:41 am
Location: Queens, NY

Re: Question on Mt. 7:22

Post by Ed Martirosyan » January 6th, 2018, 11:39 am

Thank you Timothy.

I do think that contextually it makes more sense than the traditional rendition, since in v.23 Jesus "agrees" with them. Agree is a more literal translation for homologeō.
Mat 7:23 And then I will agree with them, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who do lawlessness.'

Agree – 3670 - homologeō (Thayer) to say the same thing as another, i.e. to agree with, assent
(HELPS Word-studies) 3670 homologéō (from 3674 /homoú, "together" and 3004 /légō, "speak to a conclusion") – properly, to voice the same conclusion, i.e. agree ("confess"); to profess (confess) because in full agreement; to align with (endorse).

He agrees that indeed they did not do this and that.

Also, if he says "I never knew you", how can it be so if he agrees that they did all this in His name?

At the Judgment Christ will ask questions and they will respond. Like in Mt.25:33 when he separates the sheep from the goats. Then he uses similar term "Depart from me" there as well.

Concerning kai. Yes, ουδε is better: "We did not prophesy... nor cast out... nor perform..."
However, kai may also be translated (and often is) as "also". Maybe even "as well". Or, kai may be substituted by a comma. Yes, ουδε is better, but does it definitely decide for the traditional translation?

The word "agree" in v.23 demands for the removal of the question format in v.22.

Here is the full text the way I rendered it.

Mat 7:22 On that day many will tell me, 'Lord, Lord, we did not prophesy by your name, and expel demons by your name, and used many powers by your name.'
Mat 7:23 And then I will agree with them, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who do lawlessness.'

Does this make grammatical sense?

Thank you for your response. :)
Ed

Jonathan Robie
Posts: 3293
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:34 pm
Location: Durham, NC
Contact:

Re: Question on Mt. 7:22

Post by Jonathan Robie » January 6th, 2018, 1:14 pm

I don't think the grammar rules this out, but I don't think it makes contextual sense. Let's look at the verse that comes right before 7:22:
Matt 7:21 wrote:Οὐ πᾶς ὁ λέγων μοι· Κύριε κύριε εἰσελεύσεται εἰς τὴν βασιλείαν τῶν οὐρανῶν, ἀλλ’ ὁ ποιῶν τὸ θέλημα τοῦ πατρός μου τοῦ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς.
So the context is talking about people who address Jesus saying Κύριε κύριε, but do not do τὸ θέλημα τοῦ πατρός. You seem to be assuming that these people are aware that they are not doing God's will, and agree with his judgement. I don't think so, and one reason is that similar accounts are unambiguous about this, and there are several where people offer the wrong reasons that they should be accepted.

Matthew 25 is similar to this, but both the righteous and the unrighteous are surprised that the King judges things differently than they had.
Matt 25 wrote:37 τότε ἀποκριθήσονται αὐτῷ οἱ δίκαιοι λέγοντες· Κύριε, πότε σε εἴδομεν πεινῶντα καὶ ἐθρέψαμεν, ἢ διψῶντα καὶ ἐποτίσαμεν; 38 πότε δέ σε εἴδομεν ξένον καὶ συνηγάγομεν, ἢ γυμνὸν καὶ περιεβάλομεν; 39 πότε δέ σε εἴδομεν ἀσθενοῦντα ἢ ἐν φυλακῇ καὶ ἤλθομεν πρός σε; 40 καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ βασιλεὺς ἐρεῖ αὐτοῖς· Ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ἐφ’ ὅσον ἐποιήσατε ἑνὶ τούτων τῶν ἀδελφῶν μου τῶν ἐλαχίστων, ἐμοὶ ἐποιήσατε.
Matt 25 wrote:44 τότε ἀποκριθήσονται καὶ αὐτοὶ λέγοντες· Κύριε, πότε σε εἴδομεν πεινῶντα ἢ διψῶντα ἢ ξένον ἢ γυμνὸν ἢ ἀσθενῆ ἢ ἐν φυλακῇ καὶ οὐ διηκονήσαμέν σοι; 45 τότε ἀποκριθήσεται αὐτοῖς λέγων· Ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ἐφ’ ὅσον οὐκ ἐποιήσατε ἑνὶ τούτων τῶν ἐλαχίστων, οὐδὲ ἐμοὶ ἐποιήσατε.
There's a similar element of surprise in Luke 13:25-27:
Luke 13 wrote:25 ἀφ’ οὗ ἂν ἐγερθῇ ὁ οἰκοδεσπότης καὶ ἀποκλείσῃ τὴν θύραν, καὶ ἄρξησθε ἔξω ἑστάναι καὶ κρούειν τὴν θύραν λέγοντες· Κύριε, ἄνοιξον ἡμῖν· καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ἐρεῖ ὑμῖν· Οὐκ οἶδα ὑμᾶς πόθεν ἐστέ. 26 τότε ἄρξεσθε λέγειν· Ἐφάγομεν ἐνώπιόν σου καὶ ἐπίομεν, καὶ ἐν ταῖς πλατείαις ἡμῶν ἐδίδαξας· 27 καὶ ἐρεῖ λέγων ὑμῖν· Οὐκ οἶδα πόθεν ἐστέ· ἀπόστητε ἀπ’ ἐμοῦ, πάντες ἐργάται ἀδικίας.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Ed Martirosyan
Posts: 13
Joined: January 5th, 2018, 11:41 am
Location: Queens, NY

Re: Question on Mt. 7:22

Post by Ed Martirosyan » January 6th, 2018, 5:35 pm

Thank you for your response. :)
Jonathan Robie wrote:
January 6th, 2018, 1:14 pm
I don't think the grammar rules this out,
It is important for me to know that there are no grammatical objections. Thank you for that.
Jonathan Robie wrote:
January 6th, 2018, 1:14 pm
... but I don't think it makes contextual sense. Let's look at the verse that comes right before 7:22: clip
So the context is talking about people who address Jesus saying Κύριε κύριε, but do not do τὸ θέλημα τοῦ πατρός. You seem to be assuming that these people are aware that they are not doing God's will, and agree with his judgement. I don't think so, and one reason is that similar accounts are unambiguous about this, and there are several where people offer the wrong reasons that they should be accepted.
But they do not agree with his judgment. All they do is answer the question that we presume is, did you do all these things in My name? And they respond that they did not.
And THEN (and it is important) Christ agrees ὁμολογέω with them in v.23. And then tells them to depart.
They called him Lord κύριε, actually meaning "Master".
I am saying that these people have nothing to do with Christianity. They were doing good works not in the name of Christ.
Matthew 25 is similar to this, but both the righteous and the unrighteous are surprised that the King judges things differently than they had.
But there was no surprise concerning the judgment itself. Surprise was that they did not recognize him in jail. The judgement itself they did not dispute.
Jonathan Robie wrote:
January 6th, 2018, 1:14 pm
There's a similar element of surprise in Luke 13:25-27:clip
And here they claim that he should recognize them since they lived in the same streets. But elsewhere Christ was saying that unless people proclaim his name he would not proclaim theirs in the presence of the Father.

What I am saying is that since Christ in v.23 agreed ὁμολογέω with their statement in v.22, he could not have agreed that they prophesied in HIS name. That was what the traditional question format is suggesting (that is my objection). His agreement was with that they DID NOT prophecy in his name. And that was his question ... I know you did all these things, but did you do them in MY name? They responded to his question: no, not in YOUR name.
And he agreed with their answer and told them to depart.

I cannot see how this makes no sense.

Thanks :)
Ed

Jonathan Robie
Posts: 3293
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:34 pm
Location: Durham, NC
Contact:

Re: Question on Mt. 7:22

Post by Jonathan Robie » January 6th, 2018, 6:30 pm

OK, I don't read it the way you do, but any further discussion would go beyond the bounds of B-Greek, so I'll leave it at that.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

daveburt
Posts: 33
Joined: October 30th, 2017, 11:18 pm

Re: Question on Mt. 7:22

Post by daveburt » January 7th, 2018, 6:14 am

Ed Martirosyan wrote:
January 6th, 2018, 11:39 am
Concerning kai. Yes, ουδε is better: "We did not prophesy... nor cast out... nor perform..."
However, kai may also be translated (and often is) as "also". Maybe even "as well". Or, kai may be substituted by a comma. Yes, ουδε is better, but does it definitely decide for the traditional translation?
In English "not X and Y and Z" means "not all", or "(not X) but (Y and Z)" not "not any." I would expect η (or) rather than και for the logic (which would be most clearly expressed by ουδε) unless the Greek και represents a different logical operator than English 'and' (which I doubt).

Jonathan, can you easily find parallel passages matching the pattern (where ου governs a set of clauses linked with και) with your treebank powers?

Jonathan Robie
Posts: 3293
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:34 pm
Location: Durham, NC
Contact:

Re: Question on Mt. 7:22

Post by Jonathan Robie » January 7th, 2018, 8:22 am

daveburt wrote:
January 7th, 2018, 6:14 am
Jonathan, can you easily find parallel passages matching the pattern (where ου governs a set of clauses linked with και) with your treebank powers?
I'll take a look on Monday. I also wonder if the grammars says something about this construct.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Barry Hofstetter
Posts: 1143
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: Question on Mt. 7:22

Post by Barry Hofstetter » January 7th, 2018, 11:54 am

Ed, nobody has ever read this as anything other than a question, as far back as Jerome, who uses "nonne" (a particle in Latin which introduces a question expecting a "yes" answer).

1) While it is true that, out of context, one might be able to read the sentence the way you propose, it is so unlikely in the context as to approach an impossibility. οὐ is regularly used of questions which expect a "yes" answer (μή is regularly used of questions which expect a "no" answer). That usage makes the best sense here.

2) I do not agree that "agree" is the best translation of ὁμολογέω in this context. What does Jesus ὁμολογεῖ? The object clauses, ὅτι gives us the content of the action expressed in the verb, Οὐδέποτε ἔγνων ὑμᾶς, "I never knew you." ὁμολογέω is used here of a public declaration:

④ to acknowledge someth., ordinarily in public, acknowledge, claim, profess, praise

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 708). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

He is therefore not agreeing with them, he is declaring "to them," dative of indirect object.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
ἐγὼ δὲ διδάσκω τε καὶ γράφω ἵνα τὰ ἀξιώτερα μανθάνω

Jonathan Robie
Posts: 3293
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:34 pm
Location: Durham, NC
Contact:

Re: Question on Mt. 7:22

Post by Jonathan Robie » January 8th, 2018, 10:00 am

I agree with Barry, and his discussion of ὁμολογέω is helpful. A little more on that.
Ed Martirosyan wrote:
January 6th, 2018, 5:35 pm
And here they claim that he should recognize them since they lived in the same streets. But elsewhere Christ was saying that unless people proclaim his name he would not proclaim theirs in the presence of the Father.
What is the word used in that passage?
Matt 10:32 wrote:Πᾶς οὖν ὅστις ὁμολογήσει ἐν ἐμοὶ ἔμπροσθεν τῶν ἀνθρώπων, ὁμολογήσω κἀγὼ ἐν αὐτῷ ἔμπροσθεν τοῦ πατρός μου τοῦ ἐν οὐρανοῖς·
Would you translate ὁμολογέω as "agree with" the two times it occurs in this verse? Luke is parallel:
Luke 12:8 wrote:8 Λέγω δὲ ὑμῖν, πᾶς ὃς ἂν ὁμολογήσῃ ἐν ἐμοὶ ἔμπροσθεν τῶν ἀνθρώπων, καὶ ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ὁμολογήσει ἐν αὐτῷ ἔμπροσθεν τῶν ἀγγέλων τοῦ θεοῦ·
In fact, this verb is never translated "agree with" in the ESV:

https://www.stepbible.org/?q=version=ESV|strong=G3670

Barry cited BDAG, the best New Testament lexicon for most purposes. You cited Thayer's earlier, I'll enclose the original definition found in Thayer's, taken from the printed edition. Sorry for the fuzziness, this is a Google scan.


Screen Shot 2018-01-08 at 8.51.00 AM.png
Screen Shot 2018-01-08 at 8.51.00 AM.png (284.74 KiB) Viewed 280 times
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest