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επι της θαλασση

Posted: May 4th, 2018, 9:49 am
by JamesAH
Revelation 5:13 there is this part επι της θαλασση which translated is "on the sea". I'm wondering why John would use επι instead of εν or εις because it doesn't make sense when it's translated "on the sea" as far as the created things mentioned in the verse. I would think that "in the sea" would make more sense.

Re: επι της θαλασση

Posted: May 5th, 2018, 8:37 am
by Barry Hofstetter
I thought I saw this question recently somewhere else? Yes, it is a somewhat unusual use of the preposition in an author known for using what even his contemporaries would regard as non-standard Greek. Pretty clear nonetheless what he means, though.

Re: επι της θαλασση

Posted: October 23rd, 2018, 7:28 pm
by Jacob Rhoden
Interesting question, I have no time to reflect on this more right now, but he is talking about what he can see in a vision, assumedly from the perspective of outside of the water. So my initial reaction is that choice of επι would simply suggest a precise description of what he can see. A careful avoidance to describe what is occurring inside the sea, simply because he cannot see it. What do you think?

Re: επι της θαλασση

Posted: February 3rd, 2019, 4:52 pm
by Saboi
It should read "By the sea and all that is in them"

ἐπὶ τῆς θαλάσσης ἅ ἐστίν καὶ τὰ ἐν αὐτοῖς πάντα
על־הים־אשר־ובם־כל
על־הים־וכל־אשר־בם

Re: επι της θαλασση

Posted: March 10th, 2019, 1:09 pm
by Bill Ross
Saboi wrote:
February 3rd, 2019, 4:52 pm
It should read "By the sea and all that is in them"

ἐπὶ τῆς θαλάσσης ἅ ἐστίν καὶ τὰ ἐν αὐτοῖς πάντα
על־הים־אשר־ובם־כל
על־הים־וכל־אשר־בם
It may or may not be inconsequential but there seems to be a textual issue at work here:
TR 5:13
καὶ πᾶν κτίσμα ὃ ἐστιν ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ
καὶ ἐν τῇ γῇ
καὶ ὑποκάτω τῆς γῆς
καὶ ἐπὶ τῆς θαλάσσης ἅ ἐστίν
καὶ τὰ ἐν αὐτοῖς πάντα ἤκουσα λέγοντας Τῷ καθημένῳ ἐπὶ τοῦ θρόνοῦ
καὶ τῷ ἀρνίῳ ἡ εὐλογία
καὶ ἡ τιμὴ
καὶ ἡ δόξα
καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων

mGNT 5:13
καὶ πᾶν κτίσμα ὃ ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ
καὶ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς
καὶ ὑποκάτω τῆς γῆς
καὶ ἐπὶ τῆς θαλάσσης
καὶ τὰ ἐν αὐτοῖς πάντα ἤκουσα λέγοντας τῷ καθημένῳ ἐπὶ τῷ θρόνῳ
καὶ τῷ ἀρνίῳ ἡ εὐλογία
καὶ ἡ τιμὴ
καὶ ἡ δόξα
καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων

Re: επι της θαλασση

Posted: March 10th, 2019, 2:17 pm
by Bill Ross
JamesAH wrote:
May 4th, 2018, 9:49 am
Revelation 5:13 there is this part επι της θαλασση which translated is "on the sea". I'm wondering why John would use επι instead of εν or εις because it doesn't make sense when it's translated "on the sea" as far as the created things mentioned in the verse. I would think that "in the sea" would make more sense.
I wonder if it is related to:

107:23 (LXX 106:23) οἱ καταβαίνοντες εἰς τὴν θάλασσαν ἐν πλοίοις ποιοῦντες ἐργασίαν ἐν ὕδασι πολλοῗς

The reference could be to ships that are "upon the sea".