Significance of Aorist Following Present Tense

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RevelationLad
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Joined: April 5th, 2019, 11:34 am

Significance of Aorist Following Present Tense

Post by RevelationLad » June 14th, 2019, 12:45 am

In Revelation (11:1) John is told to "Rise and measure..." Rise is in the present tense and measure in the aorist:
καὶ ἐδόθη μοι κάλαμος ὅμοιος ῥάβδῳ λέγων ἔγειρε καὶ μέτρησον τὸν ναὸν τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ τὸ θυσιαστήριον καὶ τοὺς προσκυνοῦντας ἐν αὐτῷ

What is the significance of the second action in the aorist when the first is in the present tense? How is the action of "measure" in the aorist different than if both "rise" and "measure" had been written in the present tense?
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Significance of Aorist Following Present Tense

Post by Barry Hofstetter » June 14th, 2019, 12:29 pm

Please contact a moderator so that we can change your screen name to match your real name, per B-Greek policy. This is the second request, so please do so if you wish to continue posting.
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
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Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: Significance of Aorist Following Present Tense

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » June 14th, 2019, 8:56 pm

RevelationLad wrote:
June 14th, 2019, 12:45 am
In Revelation (11:1) John is told to "Rise and measure..." Rise is in the present tense and measure in the aorist:
καὶ ἐδόθη μοι κάλαμος ὅμοιος ῥάβδῳ λέγων ἔγειρε καὶ μέτρησον τὸν ναὸν τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ τὸ θυσιαστήριον καὶ τοὺς προσκυνοῦντας ἐν αὐτῷ

What is the significance of the second action in the aorist when the first is in the present tense? How is the action of "measure" in the aorist different than if both "rise" and "measure" had been written in the present tense?
Rev. 11:1 Καὶ ἐδόθη μοι κάλαμος ὅμοιος ῥάβδῳ, λέγων· ἔγειρε καὶ μέτρησον τὸν ναὸν τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ τὸ θυσιαστήριον καὶ τοὺς προσκυνοῦντας ἐν αὐτῷ. 2 καὶ τὴν αὐλὴν τὴν ἔξωθεν τοῦ ναοῦ ἔκβαλε ἔξωθεν καὶ μὴ αὐτὴν μετρήσῃς, ὅτι ἐδόθη τοῖς ἔθνεσιν, καὶ τὴν πόλιν τὴν ἁγίαν πατήσουσιν μῆνας τεσσεράκοντα [καὶ] δύο.

Look at Grimm-Thayer (or Danker) on the intransitive use of ἔγειρε. μέτρησον is answered with ἔκβαλε.
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C. Stirling Bartholomew

Peng Huiguo
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Re: Significance of Aorist Following Present Tense

Post by Peng Huiguo » June 15th, 2019, 12:34 am

Funk has a chapter on imperatives that may point to an answer. In particular, see section 809:
In general, the present imperative is preferred for general injunctions (precepts, attitudes, conduct), the aorist for conduct in specific cases
So the μέτρησον could be aorist for each of the following measurements (ναόν, θυσιαστήριον, προσκυνοῦντας). Heed section 8090 (wedged between 809 and 810) though. As to why ἔγειρε is present tense, I personally think in the imperative/future "aspect" it could have a pre-ingressive sense. See for eg. Ezk 2:8 (LXX)
καὶ σύ, υἱὲ ἀνθρώπου, ἄκουε τοῦ λαλοῦντος πρὸς σέ
"And you, son of man, listen carefully to what's about to be said to you" which present tense in ἄκουε stands out in the predominantly aorist imperatives issued by the spirit to Ezekiel. So here in Rev, the present → aorist sets up a natural progression of action life-cycles.

Incidentally, section 8090 says
Traditional Greek grammar has operated largely on intuitions based on theory and a few random examples.
which I suspect is still the case. If the grammar was settled, researchers of the language would be out of job.
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