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John 9:24 "..this man is a sinner"

Posted: September 7th, 2021, 10:32 pm
by victor.vicveh
Hello everyone i have a question about Jn 9:24

Ἐφώνησαν οὖν τὸν ἄνθρωπον ἐκ δευτέρου ὃς ἦν τυφλὸς καὶ εἶπαν αὐτῷ· δὸς δόξαν τῷ θεῷ· ἡμεῖς οἴδαμεν ὅτι οὗτος ὁ ἄνθρωπος ἁμαρτωλός ἐστιν.
(Jn. 9:24 NA28).

Then they summoned the man who used to be blind a second time and said to him, “Promise before God to tell the truth. We know that this man is a sinner.
-The NET Bible (Jn 9:24). Biblical Studies Press.

What would be the sintactical function of ἁμαρτωλός?, is it a predicate nominative?, its a predicate adjective or a substantive adjective?

Thank you in advance.

Re: John 9:24 "..this man is a sinner"

Posted: September 8th, 2021, 5:58 am
by S Walch
Predicate adjective.

Re: John 9:24 "..this man is a sinner"

Posted: September 8th, 2021, 10:12 am
by Barry Hofstetter
S Walch wrote: September 8th, 2021, 5:58 am Predicate adjective.
This is right, but it could also be considered a substantive, "sinner." As either adjective or substantive, definitely the predicate nominative.

Re: John 9:24 "..this man is a sinner"

Posted: September 8th, 2021, 7:19 pm
by Stephen Carlson
The distinction between nouns and adjectives is pretty weak in Greek, so spending a lot of time wondering which it is is spending less time with the Greek.

Re: John 9:24 "..this man is a sinner"

Posted: September 9th, 2021, 6:40 am
by Barry Hofstetter
Stephen Carlson wrote: September 8th, 2021, 7:19 pm The distinction between nouns and adjectives is pretty weak in Greek, so spending a lot of time wondering which it is is spending less time with the Greek.
I think "weak" might be a bit of a strong term here... :) Most of the time, the distinction is clear, and it's important particularly for the beginning student to see this, and what options there might be for a PN, especially one that elsewhere has a lively occupation both as an adjective and a substantive. In the text cited, it makes practically no difference to the meaning.

As for wasting time wondering, some can wonder while they wander. Seriously, though, this is the sort of question beginning students should ask...

Re: John 9:24 "..this man is a sinner"

Posted: September 9th, 2021, 9:15 pm
by Stephen Carlson
In Thrax, both what we call nouns and adjectives as different parts of speech are merely different species of a single part of speech, ὄνομα. Since adjectives can be readily substantivized with the article, we're getting to close to a distinction without a difference. (Obviously, not quite there since some but not all adjectives are gradable.)

Re: John 9:24 "..this man is a sinner"

Posted: September 10th, 2021, 6:33 am
by Barry Hofstetter
Stephen Carlson wrote: September 9th, 2021, 9:15 pm In Thrax, both what we call nouns and adjectives as different parts of speech are merely different species of a single part of speech, ὄνομα. Since adjectives can be readily substantivized with the article, we're getting to close to a distinction without a difference. (Obviously, not quite there since some but not all adjectives are gradable.)
So you agree with Thrax's taxonomy on this? Interesting food for thought. As it is, I think the distinction is usually clear from usage and context, though the beginning student should be aware of the attributive use, e.g., ὁ ἄνθρωπος ὁ ἀγαθός where the article does not make the adjective a substantive. I'm not sure what you mean by "gradable."

Since I'n doing lots of Latin lately, Latin does the same thing with adjectives but no article, so even more context dependent. I simply tell my beginning students if there's a noun there in the same number, gender and case than it's likely the adjective. Otherwise, treat it as a pretending to be a noun... :) Of course one can find exceptions to this translationese rule.

Re: John 9:24 "..this man is a sinner"

Posted: September 10th, 2021, 9:14 am
by Stephen Carlson
Not so much agree with Thrax, but recognizing that the categories are fuzzier for Greek than for English, and it’s useful to keep in mind how the Greek grammarians conceived of things.

Gradable means that it inflects for the positive, comparative, and superlative degrees.

Re: John 9:24 "..this man is a sinner"

Posted: September 10th, 2021, 9:31 am
by Daniel Semler
Stephen Carlson wrote: September 9th, 2021, 9:15 pm Since adjectives can be readily substantivized with the article, we're getting to close to a distinction without a difference. (Obviously, not quite there since some but not all adjectives are gradable.)
Hi Stephen

Could you clarify a point for me here ? Do you mean that there would be less or more distinction if all adjectives (or none) were gradable ?

Thx
D