Interpreting datives without prepositions.

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mikeatnip
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Re: Interpreting datives without prepositions.

Post by mikeatnip »

mikeatnip wrote: January 1st, 2023, 1:05 pm @MAubrey
I would be interested in any commentary you may have on the idea of μετα having a spatial concept of behind/following. In that sense, it would be the opposite of αντι. So the landmark would be a truck and the trajector would be a trailer that is μετα the truck. It is accusitively behind the truck and genetively with the truck. And following the truck wherever it goes, if it goes, just like metadata follows along with data wherever it roams.
I assume that linguistic "landmarks" can be moving landmarks, not always static. :-)
Yes, I think we have that. Rachel was exploring μετά in that regard last spring.
I bit the bullet and upgraded in Logos to a package that has the book. I have only looked at the μετα section as of yet and am certainly looking forward to going through the rest. The explanation give for μετα "clicks" in my brain. I had tried to form my own conception, and think I got part way there, but trajector surrounded by landmark(s) just makes a lot of sense to me.
Sorry, I think I have sort of hijacked this thread, but it has been beneficial on my end, and I trust that it is only stepping back and looking at the OP in broader sweeps.
Mike Atnip
May I not debate presumptuously; may I not be silent impudently. May I learn beneficial speech; may I acquire discerning silence. -Ephrem the Syrian
Jonathan Robie
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Re: Interpreting datives without prepositions.

Post by Jonathan Robie »

mikeatnip wrote: January 4th, 2023, 10:12 am I bit the bullet and upgraded in Logos to a package that has the book. I have only looked at the μετα section as of yet and am certainly looking forward to going through the rest. The explanation give for μετα "clicks" in my brain. I had tried to form my own conception, and think I got part way there, but trajector surrounded by landmark(s) just makes a lot of sense to me.
Sorry, I think I have sort of hijacked this thread, but it has been beneficial on my end, and I trust that it is only stepping back and looking at the OP in broader sweeps.
Turns out, it's already in what I have. If you have Logos and own this book, you can read it on the Web here:

https://classic.app.logos.com/books/LLS ... F%81%CE%B9

Rachel Aubrey, Michael Aubrey, Greek Prepositions in the New Testament: A Cognitive-Functional Description, Lexham Research Lexicons (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2020).

To me, at least, this provides a really clear model of how prepositions work in Greek, clearer than in most sources I have.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Jonathan Robie
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Re: Interpreting datives without prepositions.

Post by Jonathan Robie »

I hope Sebastian is still reading here ...

But to Sebastian's question, the real answer is this: most of the time, the dative without a preposition indicates an indirect object.

It's probably most helpful to think of that as a different use of the dative than the use of dative with prepositions. When you get around to the use of cases with prepositions, this thread has some useful starting points ... at various levels of depth.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Sebastian Satkurunath
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Joined: December 28th, 2022, 2:33 pm

Re: Interpreting datives without prepositions.

Post by Sebastian Satkurunath »

I am indeed still reading, and have quite enjoyed the diversions, even if bits of it are going rather over my head for now :)

The diagram and the lion comic were both really useful in helping me to start forming concepts a bit less vague than a general "thing relating to another thing" around the different prepositions. And also the reminder that I can use a concordance and see how words are used in a wider context than a constructed exercise has been handy several times already.

Thanks everyone!
--
Sebastian James Satkurunath
ThomasSeidler
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Re: Interpreting datives without prepositions.

Post by ThomasSeidler »

This is a deviation from the OP's question, but I hope inline with the subject! If not please have mercy on me and redirect me accordingly...

Full disclosure: I come here, distinctly cap-in-hand, begging for help! :oops: I hope to help some folk find a domain name that works for their charitable purposes, whilst not being nonsensical/faux Koine Greek...

Can a dative form of a word, e.g. κυρίῳ, have meaning alone?

For instance, if you found such a word graffiti'd on a first century wall, could it have any intelligible meaning in isolation? Or would you never see such usage, but only the nominative use in isolation?

To quote Jonathan Robie:
"the dative without a preposition indicates an indirect object".
Now I may not even have understood Jonathan there, but would people read κυρίῳ and think it suggests "to the Lord" and allow the context of it's location to make the difference in range of possible meanings? If found on a building maybe it would suggest that it was "for the Lord"/dedicated "to the Lord", or an instruction to the reader that they should look "to the Lord"... Or could it only reasonably/sanely imply the dativus instrumenti or others that don't require a preposition?

Or would such 'graffiti' only make sense with a preposition, and so rather than infer the full range of possible dative usages, it'd come with a preposition and be a narrower one? τῷ κυρίῳ, ἐν κυρίῳ, παρὰ κυρίῳ (or some other form) to make sense as such graffiti?

As an aside, what form was Ichthus, it seems to match none? It looks like it used the five letter form thus: ἰχθύε/ΙΧΘΥΣ for it's acronym, but I can't see this is valid Koine Greek?

If the above manifests my massive ignorance, I am not surprised. So you don't need to pull punches or fear upsetting me by correcting my likely false assumptions and many other basic linguistic and semantic errors. All such corrections will be received with a spirit of considerable gratitude! Though I have spent many an hour on blueletterbible I am aware that I have a vast sea of ignorance, and that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
ThomasSeidler
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Re: Interpreting datives without prepositions.

Post by ThomasSeidler »

To shamelessly bump this, does this website domain name make sense?

https://kyr.io
or again
https://kur.io

Are these sane for their purpose? Some folk obviously think so, and I'd love to know if they are right.
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