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John 3:36
Posted: April 12th, 2023, 12:45 am
by yeeks
I am curious about this particular text:
ὁ πιστεύων εἰς τὸν υἱὸν ἔχει ζωὴν αἰώνιον· ὁ °δὲ ἀπειθῶν τῷ υἱῷ οὐκ ὄψεται ζωήν, ἀλλʼ ἡ ὀργὴ τοῦ θεοῦ μένει ἐπʼ αὐτόν
One question I have is that the son (υἱός) is expressed differently alongside the participles.
The first instance is an accusative, used to shape what the πιστεύων believe in.
The second instance is dative, and is used in relation to ἀπειθῶν. I believe even though it is dative, it can be taken as the object that is being disobeyed. Porter's IGNT allows the dative to be an object in some cases.
The second question is the identity of the last αὐτόν. I did not think there was any debate initially that the last αὐτόν are the same as the ἀπειθῶν but one suggestion is that the last αὐτόν refers to the Son (this reading is quite universalist but we will park that theology aside). Is that a legitimate way to read Greek and have the subject change?
Re: John 3:36
Posted: May 9th, 2023, 7:08 am
by Jason Hare
yeeks wrote: ↑April 12th, 2023, 12:45 am
I am curious about this particular text:
ὁ πιστεύων εἰς τὸν υἱὸν ἔχει ζωὴν αἰώνιον· ὁ °δὲ ἀπειθῶν τῷ υἱῷ οὐκ ὄψεται ζωήν, ἀλλʼ ἡ ὀργὴ τοῦ θεοῦ μένει ἐπʼ αὐτόν
One question I have is that the son (υἱός) is expressed differently alongside the participles.
The first instance is an accusative, used to shape what the πιστεύων believe in.
The second instance is dative, and is used in relation to ἀπειθῶν. I believe even though it is dative, it can be taken as the object that is being disobeyed. Porter's IGNT allows the dative to be an object in some cases.
The second question is the identity of the last αὐτόν. I did not think there was any debate initially that the last αὐτόν are the same as the ἀπειθῶν but one suggestion is that the last αὐτόν refers to the Son (this reading is quite universalist but we will park that theology aside). Is that a legitimate way to read Greek and have the subject change?
αὐτόν certainly refers to the person who disobeys at the end of the verse. I don’t know what your initial question is. πιστεύω often takes the object of belief after the prepositions εἰς or ἐπί, and verbs of obeying, leading and following (such as πείθομαι, ἕπομαι, ἡμέομαι, and ἀπειθέω) are regularly followed by the dative. There’s nothing surprising or out of the ordinary there.
Re: John 3:36
Posted: May 18th, 2023, 12:02 am
by yeeks
Jason Hare wrote: ↑May 9th, 2023, 7:08 am
πιστεύω often takes the object of belief after the prepositions
εἰς or
ἐπί, and verbs of obeying, leading and following (such as
πείθομαι,
ἕπομαι,
ἡμέομαι, and
ἀπειθέω) are regularly followed by the dative.[/serif]
The struggle was because πιστεύων εἰς τὸν υἱὸν has the object in the accusative and not dative like you said.
But the second clause, ἀπειθῶν τῷ υἱῷ has it in the dative.
Is this significant? Why is there an expression of one object in accusative and the other one in dative?
Jason Hare wrote: ↑May 9th, 2023, 7:08 amαὐτόν certainly refers to the person who disobeys at the end of the verse.
There is an argument being made that given the context, αὐτόν can refer to the Son, i.e., the one who doesn't believe in Jesus merely sees the wrath of God remaining on Jesus.
Re: John 3:36
Posted: May 23rd, 2023, 4:39 am
by Stephen Carlson
yeeks wrote: ↑May 18th, 2023, 12:02 am
The struggle was because πιστεύων εἰς τὸν υἱὸν has the object in the accusative and not dative like you said.
But the second clause, ἀπειθῶν τῷ υἱῷ has it in the dative.
Is this significant? Why is there an expression of one object in accusative and the other one in dative?
Technically, in πιστεύων εἰς τὸν υἱόν, υἱόν is the object of the preposition εἰς, not of the verb πιστεύων.
As for why a dative object τῷ υἱῷ and a prepositional phrase complement εἰς τὸν υἱόν, the dative in the Koine is competing with and slowly losing ground to prepositional phrases with the same propositional semantics.
Re: John 3:36
Posted: May 23rd, 2023, 11:36 am
by yeeks
Stephen Carlson wrote: ↑May 23rd, 2023, 4:39 am
yeeks wrote: ↑May 18th, 2023, 12:02 am
The struggle was because πιστεύων εἰς τὸν υἱὸν has the object in the accusative and not dative like you said.
But the second clause, ἀπειθῶν τῷ υἱῷ has it in the dative.
Is this significant? Why is there an expression of one object in accusative and the other one in dative?
Technically, in πιστεύων εἰς τὸν υἱόν, υἱόν is the object of the preposition εἰς, not of the verb πιστεύων.
As for why a dative object τῷ υἱῷ and a prepositional phrase complement εἰς τὸν υἱόν, the dative in the Koine is competing with and slowly losing ground to prepositional phrases with the same propositional semantics.
Ah thank you. This reply helps tremendously.