Gregory of Nazianzius, 3rd Theological Oration

Gregory of Nazianzius, 3rd Theological Oration

Postby Mike Baber » May 22nd, 2012, 12:08 am

καὶ τοῦτό ἐστιν ἡμῖν ὁ Πατήρ͵ καὶ ὁ Υἱός͵ καὶ τὸ ἅγιον Πνεῦμα· ὁ μὲν γεννήτωρ καὶ προβολεύς͵ λέγω δὲ ἀπαθῶς καὶ ἀχρόνως καὶ ἀσωμάτως· τῶν δέ͵ τὸ μὲν γέννημα͵ τὸ δὲ πρόβλημα


Here is Schaff's translation:

This is what we mean by Father and Son and Holy Ghost. The Father is the Begetter and the Emitter; without passion of course, and without reference to time, and not in a corporeal manner. The Son is the Begotten, and the Holy Ghost the Emission;


I don't see the Greek equivalents for "Father," "Son," and "Holy Spirit" anywhere after the initial phrase (i.e., καὶ τοῦτό ἐστιν ἡμῖν ὁ Πατήρ͵ καὶ ὁ Υἱός͵ καὶ τὸ ἅγιον Πνεῦμα). So, would a non-Christian, one not familiar with the orthodoxy or even Christian beliefs, be able to produce a translation as Schaff did, and if so, how's that possible? How would one know to include the Son for "τὸ γέννημα" and the Holy Spirit for "τὸ πρόβλημα"?
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Re: Gregory of Nazianzius, 3rd Theological Oration

Postby Alex Hopkins » May 22nd, 2012, 5:04 am

Mike Baber referred first to a quote from Gregory of Nazianzius, 3rd Theological Oration,

καὶ τοῦτό ἐστιν ἡμῖν ὁ Πατήρ͵ καὶ ὁ Υἱός͵ καὶ τὸ ἅγιον Πνεῦμα· ὁ μὲν γεννήτωρ καὶ προβολεύς͵ λέγω δὲ ἀπαθῶς καὶ ἀχρόνως καὶ ἀσωμάτως· τῶν δέ͵ τὸ μὲν γέννημα͵ τὸ δὲ πρόβλημα


and then to a translation from Schaff:

This is what we mean by Father and Son and Holy Ghost. The Father is the Begetter and the Emitter; without passion of course, and without reference to time, and not in a corporeal manner. The Son is the Begotten, and the Holy Ghost the Emission;


Mike asked,

I don't see the Greek equivalents for "Father," "Son," and "Holy Spirit" anywhere after the initial phrase (i.e., καὶ τοῦτό ἐστιν ἡμῖν ὁ Πατήρ͵ καὶ ὁ Υἱός͵ καὶ τὸ ἅγιον Πνεῦμα). So, would a non-Christian, one not familiar with the orthodoxy or even Christian beliefs, be able to produce a translation as Schaff did, and if so, how's that possible? How would one know to include the Son for "τὸ γέννημα" and the Holy Spirit for "τὸ πρόβλημα"?


We have to remember that Schaff is providing a translation, so he's rendering in a way that is clear to an English reader. The ὁ μέν refers to the first member of the Trinity; ὁ μέν is often answered by a ὁ δέ, but here there's a triplet so after referring to the first element, there's two more to come. Hence the τῶν, which is likewise used as a demonstrative pronoun; we could English it as "of the others", and then he uses τὸ μέν ․․․ ͵ τὸ δέ the one ..., the other. So it's there in the Greek, but expressed in a manner that we could hardly translate literally into English in an idiomatic and clear way.

Alex Hopkins
Melbourne, Australia
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Re: Gregory of Nazianzius, 3rd Theological Oration

Postby David Lim » May 22nd, 2012, 5:59 am

Mike Baber wrote:
καὶ τοῦτό ἐστιν ἡμῖν ὁ Πατήρ͵ καὶ ὁ Υἱός͵ καὶ τὸ ἅγιον Πνεῦμα· ὁ μὲν γεννήτωρ καὶ προβολεύς͵ λέγω δὲ ἀπαθῶς καὶ ἀχρόνως καὶ ἀσωμάτως· τῶν δέ͵ τὸ μὲν γέννημα͵ τὸ δὲ πρόβλημα


Here is Schaff's translation:

This is what we mean by Father and Son and Holy Ghost. The Father is the Begetter and the Emitter; without passion of course, and without reference to time, and not in a corporeal manner. The Son is the Begotten, and the Holy Ghost the Emission;


I don't see the Greek equivalents for "Father," "Son," and "Holy Spirit" anywhere after the initial phrase (i.e., καὶ τοῦτό ἐστιν ἡμῖν ὁ Πατήρ͵ καὶ ὁ Υἱός͵ καὶ τὸ ἅγιον Πνεῦμα). So, would a non-Christian, one not familiar with the orthodoxy or even Christian beliefs, be able to produce a translation as Schaff did, and if so, how's that possible? How would one know to include the Son for "τὸ γέννημα" and the Holy Spirit for "τὸ πρόβλημα"?


The Greek article is used in "ο μεν ... των δε ..." in a somewhat common structure, where the article is like a demonstrative pronoun, meaning something like "indeed one ... moreover of the others ...". The second clause also has "το μεν ... το δε ..." embedded in it. If you want a literal translation (I think it is possible, Alex!) it might go something like:
καὶ τοῦτό ἐστιν ἡμῖν ὁ Πατήρ͵ καὶ ὁ Υἱός͵ καὶ τὸ ἅγιον Πνεῦμα· ὁ μὲν γεννήτωρ καὶ προβολεύς͵ λέγω δὲ ἀπαθῶς καὶ ἀχρόνως καὶ ἀσωμάτως· τῶν δέ͵ τὸ μὲν γέννημα͵ τὸ δὲ πρόβλημα
and this is to us the father and the son and the holy spirit: indeed the [first] [is] [a] begetter and emitter, but, I say, without passion and timelessly and apart from a body, moreover of the [others]: one [is] [a] begotten and the other [is] [an] emission.

See http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/project/f ... on-49.html and http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/mor ... ek#lexicon.
δαυιδ λιμ
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Re: Gregory of Nazianzius, 3rd Theological Oration

Postby Nikolaos Adamou » May 22nd, 2012, 11:25 am

as you can see,
http://www.elpenor.org/gregory-nazianzen/default.asp
this part if the oration for the Son, and later on, in the fifth part there is for the spirit.
This site has a parallel Greek and English texts.
It may be useful.
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Re: Gregory of Nazianzius, 3rd Theological Oration

Postby Mike Baber » May 22nd, 2012, 12:48 pm

I have the Greek and English texts available. I was just curious about the process of Schaff's translation of the Greek.

You guys answered it though. Thank you very much.
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Re: Gregory of Nazianzius, 3rd Theological Oration

Postby Louis L Sorenson » May 22nd, 2012, 7:48 pm

Flavius Arrianus uses this phrase countless times. Most times with a following noun in the genitive plural, but many times not. A few quotes are given below.

Lucius Flavius Arrianus 'Xenophon' (ca. AD 86 - 160), known in English as Arrian[pronunciation?] (Ἀρριανός), and Arrian of Nicomedia, was a Roman (ethnic Greek)[3] historian, public servant, military commander and philosopher of the 2nd-century Roman period. As with other authors of the Second Sophistic, Arrian wrote primarily in Attic (Indica is in Herodotus' Ionic dialect, his philosophical works in Koine Greek) .

Anabasis of Alexander is perhaps his best known work and is generally considered one of the best sources on the campaigns of Alexander the Great, not to be confused with Anabasis, then best-known work of the Athenian military leader and author Xenophon from the 4th century BC. Arrian is also considered as one of the founders of a primarily military-based focus on history. His other works include Discourses of Epictetus and Indica.


Flavius Arrianus Hist., Phil., Alexandri anabasis
Book 1, chapter 22, section 1, line 5

Οὐ πολλαῖς δὲ ὕστερον ἡμέραις ἐπάγοντος αὖθις
Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰς μηχανὰς τῷ πλινθίνῳ τῷ ἐντὸς τείχει
καὶ αὐτοῦ ἐφεστηκότος τῷ ἔργῳ, ἐκδρομὴ γίνεται παν-
δημεὶ ἐκ τῆς πόλεως, τῶν μὲν κατὰ τὸ ἐρηριμμένον
τεῖχος, ᾗ αὐτὸς Ἀλέξανδρος ἐπετέτακτο, τῶν δὲ κατὰ
τὸ Τρίπυλον, ᾗ οὐδὲ πάνυ τι προσδεχομένοις τοῖς
Μακεδόσιν ἦν.


Flavius Arrianus Hist., Phil., Alexandri anabasis
Book 1, chapter 22, section 7, line 5
ἀπέθανον δὲ τῶν
μὲν ἐκ τῆς πόλεως ἐς χιλίους, τῶν δὲ ξὺν Ἀλεξάνδρῳ
ἀμφὶ τοὺς τεσσαράκοντα, καὶ ἐν τούτοις Πτολεμαῖός
τε ὁ σωματοφύλαξ καὶ Κλέαρχος ὁ τοξάρχης καὶ
Ἀδαῖος <ὁ> χιλιάρχης, οὗτοι καὶ ἄλλοι τῶν οὐκ ἠμελη-
μένων Μακεδόνων.


Flavius Arrianus Hist., Phil., Historia Indica
Chapter 23, section 5, line 5

καὶ κτείνει αὐτῶν ἑξακισχιλίους, καὶ τοὺς ἡγεμόνας πάν-
τας· τῶν δὲ σὺν Λεοννάτῳ ἱππεῖς μὲν ἀποθνήσκουσι πεν-
τεκαίδεκα, τῶν δὲ πεζῶν ἄλλοι τε οὐ πολλοὶ καὶ Ἀπολ-
λοφάνης ὁ Γαδρωσίων σατράπης.


Flavius Arrianus Hist., Phil., Fragmenta de rebus physicis
Section 6, line 41

ἡ δὲ ἀρχὴ αὐτῶν ἀστε-
ροειδής ἐστι, καθότι εἰς σφαῖραν ξυνάγεσθαι πέφυκε
πᾶν ὅσον πυροειδές· ἡ δὲ κόμη αὐγοειδής, τῶν μὲν
ὥσπερ ἄφετος ἀνειμένη, τῶν δὲ ἐπ' εὐθὺ ἰοῦσα καὶ | ἐς
τὸ ἄνω μᾶλλόν τι ἀπὸ τοῦ ἀστέρος τεινομένη.


Flavius Arrianus Hist., Phil., Fragmenta
Volume-Jacobyʹ-F 2b,156,F, fragment 1, line 9

(2) διαφέρετο δὲ ἐς ἀλλήλους τὸ πεζὸν καὶ τὸ ἱππικόν, ὧν οἱ μέγιστοι
τῶν ἱππέων καὶ τῶν ἡγεμόνων Περδίκκας ὁ Ὀρόντου καὶ Λεοννάτος ὁ Ἄνθους
καὶ Πτολεμαῖος ὁ Λάγου, τῶν δὲ μετ' ἐκείνους Λυσίμαχός τε ὁ Ἀγαθο-
κλέους καὶ Ἀριστόνους ὁ Πεισαίου καὶ Πίθων ὁ Κρατεύα καὶ Σέλευκος ὁ
Ἀντιόχου καὶ Εὐμένης ὁ Καρδιανός.
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