Needing Help with Erasmus Exemplar

R. Perkins
Posts: 88
Joined: January 18th, 2013, 9:55 pm

Needing Help with Erasmus Exemplar

Post by R. Perkins » December 25th, 2018, 4:41 am

A friend of mine just returned from Basel, Switzerland and examining some of the Greek MSS used - and annotated - by Erasmus. He sent me a photo that I have included in this post of a MS that Erasmus underlined or sectioned off a portion of the NT. Problem is, my friend does not know which MS it was, nor which text it is. He is doing some work on Erasmus and is trying to identify which portion of the NT Erasmus has sectioned off - and why.

As you will be able to see, the scribes writing is poor and often difficult to make out what letters he intends to write. However, from what little I was able to translate it seems that this section is either from Ephesians or Revelation (?). And, I would surmise that the portion between the two red lines (you will see them in the pic.) might be a quotation from the LXX. But, I am only just now tinkering w. Greek II and thought I might run this by those far more adept than I am 🤓.

Any help would be much appreciated! Love this forum. God bless!
Attachments
7591A956-8D2C-4986-B7E6-6D43E55167BA.jpeg
Erasmus’s Exemplar
7591A956-8D2C-4986-B7E6-6D43E55167BA.jpeg (759.83 KiB) Viewed 1046 times
0 x



R. Perkins
Posts: 88
Joined: January 18th, 2013, 9:55 pm

Re: Needing Help with Erasmus Exemplar

Post by R. Perkins » December 25th, 2018, 8:48 am

Addendum: My friend just emailed me and said it isn’t from Revelation since they did not have that MS in Basel. I am thinking somewhere in Ephesians :?:.
0 x

Paul-Nitz
Posts: 461
Joined: June 1st, 2011, 4:19 am
Location: Lilongwe, Malawi

Re: Needing Help with Erasmus Exemplar

Post by Paul-Nitz » December 25th, 2018, 10:30 am

Luke 1:26–30 (NA27)
26 Ἐν δὲ τῷ μηνὶ τῷ ἕκτῳ ἀπεστάλη ὁ ἄγγελος Γαβριὴλ ἀπὸ τοῦ θεοῦ εἰς πόλιν τῆς Γαλιλαίας ᾗ ὄνομα Ναζαρὲθ 27 πρὸς παρθένον

ἐμνηστευμένην ἀνδρὶ ᾧ ὄνομα Ἰωσὴφ

ἐξ οἴκου Δαυὶδ καὶ τὸ ὄνομα τῆς παρθένου Μαριάμ. 28 καὶ εἰσελθὼν πρὸς αὐτὴν εἶπεν· χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη, ὁ κύριος μετὰ σοῦ. 29 ἡ δὲ ἐπὶ τῷ λόγῳ διεταράχθη καὶ διελογίζετο ποταπὸς εἴη ὁ ἀσπασμὸς οὗτος. 30 καὶ εἶπεν ὁ ἄγγελος αὐτῇ·
μὴ φοβοῦ, Μαριάμ, εὗρες γὰρ χάριν παρὰ τῷ θεῷ.
0 x
Paul D. Nitz - Lilongwe Malawi

R. Perkins
Posts: 88
Joined: January 18th, 2013, 9:55 pm

Re: Needing Help with Erasmus Exemplar

Post by R. Perkins » December 25th, 2018, 7:41 pm

Paul-Nitz wrote:
December 25th, 2018, 10:30 am
Luke 1:26–30 (NA27)
26 Ἐν δὲ τῷ μηνὶ τῷ ἕκτῳ ἀπεστάλη ὁ ἄγγελος Γαβριὴλ ἀπὸ τοῦ θεοῦ εἰς πόλιν τῆς Γαλιλαίας ᾗ ὄνομα Ναζαρὲθ 27 πρὸς παρθένον

ἐμνηστευμένην ἀνδρὶ ᾧ ὄνομα Ἰωσὴφ

ἐξ οἴκου Δαυὶδ καὶ τὸ ὄνομα τῆς παρθένου Μαριάμ. 28 καὶ εἰσελθὼν πρὸς αὐτὴν εἶπεν· χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη, ὁ κύριος μετὰ σοῦ. 29 ἡ δὲ ἐπὶ τῷ λόγῳ διεταράχθη καὶ διελογίζετο ποταπὸς εἴη ὁ ἀσπασμὸς οὗτος. 30 καὶ εἶπεν ὁ ἄγγελος αὐτῇ·
μὴ φοβοῦ, Μαριάμ, εὗρες γὰρ χάριν παρὰ τῷ θεῷ.
Excellent! How on earth is someone supposed to make out those letters? That is, how would a person know how to translate this since (for me at least) the letters are so difficult to make out?
0 x

Stephen Carlson
Posts: 2803
Joined: May 11th, 2011, 10:51 am
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Re: Needing Help with Erasmus Exemplar

Post by Stephen Carlson » December 25th, 2018, 10:09 pm

R. Perkins wrote:
December 25th, 2018, 7:41 pm
Excellent! How on earth is someone supposed to make out those letters? That is, how would a person know how to translate this since (for me at least) the letters are so difficult to make out?
Training. This is an example of minuscule handwriting, and as far as these things go, it is pretty straightforward and easy to read.

Perhaps the easiest way to learn to read this script is to google "Greek minuscule" and start reading the pages with tables of letters and ligatures/letter combinations in their printed form and in minuscule form. Then, take a known text (e.g., New Testament) and start transcribing, checking what you transcribe against the known text. Since almost all minuscule NT MSS are Byzantine, you should use Robinson-Pierpoint or Hodges-Farstad as your comparison text, or in a pinch, the Textus Receptus.

You can also use the printed critical text, but be prepared for variants. (For Galatians, the Byzantine exemplar differs from the Nestle-Aland text in about 100 places.)
0 x
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia

R. Perkins
Posts: 88
Joined: January 18th, 2013, 9:55 pm

Re: Needing Help with Erasmus Exemplar

Post by R. Perkins » December 26th, 2018, 2:25 am

Stephen Carlson wrote:
December 25th, 2018, 10:09 pm
R. Perkins wrote:
December 25th, 2018, 7:41 pm
Excellent! How on earth is someone supposed to make out those letters? That is, how would a person know how to translate this since (for me at least) the letters are so difficult to make out?
Training. This is an example of minuscule handwriting, and as far as these things go, it is pretty straightforward and easy to read.

Perhaps the easiest way to learn to read this script is to google "Greek minuscule" and start reading the pages with tables of letters and ligatures/letter combinations in their printed form and in minuscule form. Then, take a known text (e.g., New Testament) and start transcribing, checking what you transcribe against the known text. Since almost all minuscule NT MSS are Byzantine, you should use Robinson-Pierpoint or Hodges-Farstad as your comparison text, or in a pinch, the Textus Receptus.

You can also use the printed critical text, but be prepared for variants. (For Galatians, the Byzantine exemplar differs from the Nestle-Aland text in about 100 places.)
Thanks. However, I try to read the Greek NT daily (NA28 & UBS-5) and have no problem speed reading the minuscule type set. I erroneously thought I could do the same w. a handwritten corpus. I could make out some words, but it was very difficult to make out some of the letters and to tell where one word was ending and another beginning.

I realize I still have a lot to learn, but reading the Greek text has always been relatively easy in software. For ex., recently my wife and I were reading through P46 (Colossians) w. no problem at all. Not sure why I had so much problem w. this MS. Thank you again!
0 x

Tony Pope
Posts: 120
Joined: July 14th, 2011, 6:20 pm

Re: Needing Help with Erasmus Exemplar

Post by Tony Pope » December 26th, 2018, 5:15 am

This manuscript is a 12th century codex of the four gospels, housed in the University Library in Basel and known as GA 2 in the standard numbering system. There is an online colour image of the page at http://ntvmr.uni-muenster.de/community/ ... 20/10/2282

In 2016, the 500th anniversary of the first edition of Erasmus' NT, the University Library published a collection of articles as part of the celebrations. In an article on the various manuscripts Erasmus used, Dr Patrick Andrist notes that the markings in red were not made by Erasmus himself but by the typesetters, who were using this manuscript as the basis for the printed edition and made the marks to indicate their page breaks. Thus "119" presumably corresponds to page 119 in Erasmus' Novum Instrumentum.
0 x

R. Perkins
Posts: 88
Joined: January 18th, 2013, 9:55 pm

Re: Needing Help with Erasmus Exemplar

Post by R. Perkins » December 26th, 2018, 5:39 am

Tony Pope wrote:
December 26th, 2018, 5:15 am
This manuscript is a 12th century codex of the four gospels, housed in the University Library in Basel and known as GA 2 in the standard numbering system. There is an online colour image of the page at http://ntvmr.uni-muenster.de/community/ ... 20/10/2282

In 2016, the 500th anniversary of the first edition of Erasmus' NT, the University Library published a collection of articles as part of the celebrations. In an article on the various manuscripts Erasmus used, Dr Patrick Andrist notes that the markings in red were not made by Erasmus himself but by the typesetters, who were using this manuscript as the basis for the printed edition and made the marks to indicate their page breaks. Thus "119" presumably corresponds to page 119 in Erasmus' Novum Instrumentum.
Wow! Awesome. Thanks a million. Very reason I love this forum so much.

God bless.
0 x

S Walch
Posts: 156
Joined: June 13th, 2011, 4:27 pm
Location: Manchester, UK

Re: Needing Help with Erasmus Exemplar

Post by S Walch » December 26th, 2018, 2:07 pm

R. Perkins wrote:
December 26th, 2018, 2:25 am
Thanks. However, I try to read the Greek NT daily (NA28 & UBS-5) and have no problem speed reading the minuscule type set.
The modern Greek script used in the NA and UBS GNT's is set to be easily read after-all. We also benefit from the Greek letters not being in joined-up handwriting.

Be willing to bet you could read this post of mine easier on your computer than if I hand wrote it (my hand-writing is somewhat terrible) :)
I erroneously thought I could do the same w. a handwritten corpus. I could make out some words, but it was very difficult to make out some of the letters and to tell where one word was ending and another beginning.
What initially confused me was the nomen-sacrum for David (δα̅δ - fourth line down on the left), which after looking mainly at Uncial manuscripts which have the over-bar going over all the letters in the nomen-sacrum (or in several cases, going somewhat over the prior and following letters!), made me wonder exactly where in the GNT this was. Thankfully there are few places in the GNT where the word παρθένος is repeated so close together.
I realize I still have a lot to learn, but reading the Greek text has always been relatively easy in software. For ex., recently my wife and I were reading through P46 (Colossians) w. no problem at all.
You reading it from a transcription of the manuscript, or from images of it? P46 was also written by a professional scribe, as per every discussion on it.
It is rather easy to read though :) - http://ntvmr.uni-muenster.de/community/ ... 610/50/386

Not quite sure on the professnionalism of the scribe of the manuscript in question. They seem to have had an issue with the word παρθένος, correcting themselves in both places that we see παρθένον/παρθένου. That is unless this is how later minuscule manuscripts wrote out the word (see prior comment regarding dealing mainly with uncial manuscripts).

Not that errors = unprofessional scribe. P46 makes its fair number of mistakes!
0 x

R. Perkins
Posts: 88
Joined: January 18th, 2013, 9:55 pm

Re: Needing Help with Erasmus Exemplar

Post by R. Perkins » December 27th, 2018, 2:12 am

S Walch wrote:
December 26th, 2018, 2:07 pm
R. Perkins wrote:
December 26th, 2018, 2:25 am
Thanks. However, I try to read the Greek NT daily (NA28 & UBS-5) and have no problem speed reading the minuscule type set.
The modern Greek script used in the NA and UBS GNT's is set to be easily read after-all. We also benefit from the Greek letters not being in joined-up handwriting.

Be willing to bet you could read this post of mine easier on your computer than if I hand wrote it (my hand-writing is somewhat terrible) :)
I erroneously thought I could do the same w. a handwritten corpus. I could make out some words, but it was very difficult to make out some of the letters and to tell where one word was ending and another beginning.
What initially confused me was the nomen-sacrum for David (δα̅δ - fourth line down on the left), which after looking mainly at Uncial manuscripts which have the over-bar going over all the letters in the nomen-sacrum (or in several cases, going somewhat over the prior and following letters!), made me wonder exactly where in the GNT this was. Thankfully there are few places in the GNT where the word παρθένος is repeated so close together.
I realize I still have a lot to learn, but reading the Greek text has always been relatively easy in software. For ex., recently my wife and I were reading through P46 (Colossians) w. no problem at all.
You reading it from a transcription of the manuscript, or from images of it? P46 was also written by a professional scribe, as per every discussion on it.
It is rather easy to read though :) - http://ntvmr.uni-muenster.de/community/ ... 610/50/386

Not quite sure on the professnionalism of the scribe of the manuscript in question. They seem to have had an issue with the word παρθένος, correcting themselves in both places that we see παρθένον/παρθένου. That is unless this is how later minuscule manuscripts wrote out the word (see prior comment regarding dealing mainly with uncial manuscripts).

Not that errors = unprofessional scribe. P46 makes its fair number of mistakes!
Gotcha! Good points. I ran across this link tonight: http://epapers.bham.ac.uk/753/1/Tutorial1%262.pdf

Hoping it will give me some tips on reading and translating from the actual MS. Your point above regarding the diff. between handwriting and type set is spot-on. Goodness, one of the reasons I started taking Greek is because I would love to go to London and take a look at the Oxyrhincus papyri they have in the basement of one of their libraries. I cannot recall where they are housed, but I heard of this from the recently put out text critical documentary entitled “Fragments of Truth.” I have watched it 4 times already!

True about P46. I do like how it reads though.

I just assumed that Uncial texts would be harder to read than Miniscule texts. Will go back and review your post again - until it sinks into my thick skull :?! Thanks again!
0 x

Post Reply