Translating Origen's harder section

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Philip Arend
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Translating Origen's harder section

Post by Philip Arend » January 15th, 2019, 10:23 am

I'm seeking some help in the more difficult section of an earlier post. I can't see how some words, genitives and accusatives fit together coherently. My atttempted translation is below, along with a couple of dictionary look-ups from TLG. Any enlightenment to get me out of the stuck areas would be massively appreciated.

Φαμὲν τὸ μικρότερον περὶ αὐτοῦ λέγειν τοῦ Χριστοῦ· (19) μικρότερον δὲ κατὰ τὴν δόκησιν τῶν ἀκουόντων. (20) Τὸ δὲ, ἐν τῇ βασιλείᾳ τῶν οὐρανῶν, δηλοῖ ἐντοῖς πνευματικοῖς, καὶ ἐν τοῖς κατ’ οὐρανὸν ἅπασι καὶ θεϊκοῖς μείζονα ὑπάρχειν ἐκείνου τὸν Χριστόν. Οὕτως δὲ ἀνγνωσόμεθα, ὅτι, Μικρότερος· εἶτα, μικρὸν διαλιπόντες, ἐποίσομεν τὸ, Ἐν τῇ βασιλείᾳ τῶν οὐρανῶν μείζων αὐτοῦ ἐστιν. (25) Ἡ δὲ βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν αὐτός ἐστιν ὁ Χριστὸς, προτρεπόμενος πάντας εἰς μετάνοιαν, καὶ ἕλκων εἰς ἑαυτὸν διὰ τῆς χάριτος.


We say concerning 'the least' of him/whom? to speak of Christ. The least, though, as it seems to the hearers. But to those in the kingdom of heaven, clearly to those among the spiritual, and among all those according to heaven and in those of/with God? (θεϊκοῖς), Christ is greater than that one. Then this is how we read, that, “the least”, accordingly, deserting the small? (μικρὸν διαλιπόντες), will ἐποίσομεν “bring, put?”, the one in the kingdom of heaven that is greater. And the kingdom of heaven is Christ himself, exhorting all to repentance, and drawing them to himself through grace.

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θεϊκός, ή, όν, late form for θεῖος (A), θρησκεία Cat.Cod.Astr.1.116; σοφία MAMA 1.228 (Laodicea Combusta).

θεϊκός, επίθ. 1) α) Που προέρχεται από το Θεό, που ανήκει στο Θεό: Τούτ’ η βουλή ’ναι θεϊκή και θεϊκός ο νόμος (Ζήν. Α´ 122)· β) που αναφέρεται στο Θεό: επιστήμες θεϊκές (Τζάνε, Κρ. πόλ. 58012). 2) Υπέροχος, θείος: όνομα το περίφημον, αυτό το θεϊκόν σου (Σουμμ., Παστ. φίδ. Δ´ [1086]). [μτγν. επίθ. θεϊκός. Η λ. και σήμ.]

ἐπιφέρω (1 fut. ἐποίσω+
I.to bring, put or lay upon, τί τινι Il., etc.; ἐπιφέρειν τινὶ πόλεμον, Lat. bellum inferre, to make war upon him, Hdt., attic; so, ἐπ. δόρυ Aesch., etc.:— absol. to attack, assail, Ar.
2.to bring offerings to the grave, Thuc.
3.to bring as a charge against, Hdt., attic; so, ἐπ. μωρίην, μανίην τινί to impute it to him, Hdt., etc.
4.to confer or impose upon, in good or bad sense, Thuc.
5.to add to, increase, id=Thuc.
II.Mid. to bring with or upon oneself, bring as dowry, Dem.
III.Pass. to rush upon or after, attack, assault, Il., Hdt., attic
2.to be borne onwards, Hdt.
3.to come after or next, ensue, τὰ ἐπιφερόμενα coming events, id=Hdt.
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Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: Translating Origen's harder section

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » January 15th, 2019, 3:49 pm

Φαμὲν τὸ μικρότερον περὶ αὐτοῦ λέγειν τοῦ Χριστοῦ·

περὶ isn't post-positive. We know this because of the accent. So try translating as if τὸ μικρότερον is the object of Φαμὲν and περὶ αὐτοῦ λέγειν τοῦ Χριστοῦ is hyperbaton, with the verb λέγειν interrupting the prepositional phrase.
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Philip Arend
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Re: Translating Origen's harder section

Post by Philip Arend » January 16th, 2019, 8:42 am

Thanks for the points of grammar I missed. The way I understand is:

Φαμὲν τὸ μικρότερον περὶ αὐτοῦ λέγειν τοῦ Χριστοῦ·
We say ‘the least’ is speaking of him (who is) of Christ. Is that right?.

I am still especially puzzled by the structure in (20) and have made another attempt. Does this make more sense?

(19) μικρότερον δὲ κατὰ τὴν δόκησιν τῶν ἀκουόντων. (20) Τὸ δὲ, ἐν τῇ βασιλείᾳ τῶν οὐρανῶν, δηλοῖ ἐντοῖς πνευματικοῖς, καὶ ἐν τοῖς κατ’ οὐρανὸν ἅπασι καὶ θεϊκοῖς μείζονα ὑπάρχειν ἐκείνου τὸν Χριστόν.

The least, though, as it seems to the hearers. But to those in the kingdom of heaven, clearly to those among the spiritual, and among all those according to heaven and in those of/with God? (θεϊκοῖς), to that one Christ is greater.
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Translating Origen's harder section

Post by Barry Hofstetter » January 16th, 2019, 9:20 am

Philip Arend wrote:
January 16th, 2019, 8:42 am
Thanks for the points of grammar I missed. The way I understand is:

Φαμὲν τὸ μικρότερον περὶ αὐτοῦ λέγειν τοῦ Χριστοῦ·
We say ‘the least’ is speaking of him (who is) of Christ. Is that right?.
That looks right.
I am still especially puzzled by the structure in (20) and have made another attempt. Does this make more sense?

(19) μικρότερον δὲ κατὰ τὴν δόκησιν τῶν ἀκουόντων. (20) Τὸ δὲ, ἐν τῇ βασιλείᾳ τῶν οὐρανῶν, δηλοῖ ἐντοῖς πνευματικοῖς, καὶ ἐν τοῖς κατ’ οὐρανὸν ἅπασι καὶ θεϊκοῖς μείζονα ὑπάρχειν ἐκείνου τὸν Χριστόν.

The least, though, as it seems to the hearers. But to those in the kingdom of heaven, clearly to those among the spiritual, and among all those according to heaven and in those of/with God? (θεϊκοῖς), to that one Christ is greater.
τὸ δέ substantive phrase the subject of the finite verb δηλοῖ. ἐκείνου genitive of comparison depending on μείζονα.
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
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Philip Arend
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Re: Translating Origen's harder section

Post by Philip Arend » January 18th, 2019, 5:41 am

Thanks for these helps which led me back to my dusty Intermediate Greek grammars. I've never tried to work through Origen before, but he seems to be more difficult than most. I'm still not sure if I understand the sentence correctly:

Τὸ δὲ, ἐν τῇ βασιλείᾳ τῶν οὐρανῶν, δηλοῖ ( ἐντοῖς πνευματικοῖς, καὶ ἐν τοῖς κατ’ οὐρανὸν ἅπασι καὶ θεϊκοῖς μείζονα ὑπάρχειν ἐκείνου τὸν Χριστόν.
But the least in the kingdom of heaven, all those who are spiritual, those of heaven and those of God, make manifest that greater than them is Christ.

I'm not sure if this is right, but I adjusted the rest of the passage in light of your pointers. Thanking you in advance for more correction :?

Φαμὲν τὸ μικρότερον περὶ αὐτοῦ λέγειν τοῦ Χριστοῦ· (19) μικρότερον δὲ κατὰ τὴν δόκησιν τῶν ἀκουόντων. (20) Τὸ δὲ, ἐν τῇ βασιλείᾳ τῶν οὐρανῶν, δηλοῖ (those who ἐντοῖς πνευματικοῖς, καὶ ἐν τοῖς κατ’ οὐρανὸν ἅπασι καὶ θεϊκοῖς μείζονα ὑπάρχειν ἐκείνου τὸν Χριστόν. Οὕτως δὲ ἀνγνωσόμεθα, ὅτι, Μικρότερος· εἶτα , μικρὸν διαλιπόντες, ἐποίσομεν τὸ, Ἐν τῇ βασιλείᾳ τῶν οὐρανῶν μείζων αὐτοῦ ἐστιν. (25) Ἡ δὲ βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν αὐτός ἐστιν ὁ Χριστὸς, προτρεπόμενος πάντας εἰς μετάνοιαν, καὶ ἕλκων εἰς ἑαυτὸν διὰ τῆς χάριτος.

We say ‘the least’ is speaking of him (who is) of Christ. The least, though, as it seems to the hearers. But the least in the kingdom of heaven, all those who are spiritual, those of heaven and those of God, make manifest that greater than them is Christ. This then is how we read it, that, “the least”, accordingly, leaving behind smallness (μικρὸν διαλιπόντες), bring themselves (ἐποίσομεν) to the one in the kingdom of heaven that is greater. And the kingdom of heaven is Christ himself, exhorting all to repentance, and drawing them to himself through grace.

Again, thanks very much for your help. Its humbling to go back to my old textbooks and realise the genitive of comparison went in one ear and out the other...
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Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: Translating Origen's harder section

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » January 19th, 2019, 11:34 am

Philip Arend wrote:
January 18th, 2019, 5:41 am

Φαμὲν τὸ μικρότερον περὶ αὐτοῦ λέγειν τοῦ Χριστοῦ·
We say ‘the least’ is speaking of him (who is) of Christ.
You might try reading αὐτοῦ as reflexive and the infinitive as final:
Origene Contra Celsum 8.42 line 43
ὡς καὶ αὐτὸς ἐδίδαξεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς λέγων·
«Ἐὰν μὴ ὁ κόκκος τοῦ σίτου
πεσὼν εἰς τὴν γῆν ἀποθάνῃ, αὐτὸς μόνος μένει· ἐὰν δὲ
ἀποθάνῃ, πολὺν καρπὸν φέρει.»
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Philip Arend
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Re: Translating Origen's harder section

Post by Philip Arend » January 21st, 2019, 10:04 am

Thanks Stirling here it is as a reflexive and the infinive (English-ed as a gerund). Barry saw the genitive in the second sentence as "of comparison' So putting together the two sentences this is what I come up with. What do you think?

Φαμὲν τὸ μικρότερον περὶ αὐτοῦ λέγειν τοῦ Χριστοῦ· (19) μικρότερον δὲ κατὰ τὴν δόκησιν τῶν ἀκουόντων. (20) Τὸ δὲ, ἐν τῇ βασιλείᾳ τῶν οὐρανῶν, δηλοῖ ἐντοῖς πνευματικοῖς, καὶ ἐν τοῖς κατ’ οὐρανὸν ἅπασι καὶ θεϊκοῖς μείζονα ὑπάρχειν ἐκείνου τὸν Χριστόν.

We say ‘the least’ is speaking of Christ himself. The least, though, as it seems to the hearers. But, in the kingdom of heaven, he discloses to those who are spiritual, those Kata heaven and those of God, that Christ is greater than that. (is Origen here referring to Christ as being thought of as 'the least' by the hearers?).

I'm still conjecturing that θεϊκοῖς/θεϊος means "of God". Is that a fair surmisal?
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