ὁ ἀληθινὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ Θεὸς Λόγος

Stirling Bartholomew
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ὁ ἀληθινὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ Θεὸς Λόγος

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » May 6th, 2019, 1:41 pm

Ahanasius On the Incarnation
§ 46.1 Πότε τὴν τῶν εἰδώλων θρησκείαν ἤρξαντο καταλιμπάνειν οἱ ἄνθρωποι, εἰ μὴ ἀφ' οὗ γέγονεν ὁ ἀληθινὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ Θεὸς Λόγος ἐν ἀνθρώποις; πότε δὲ τὰ παρ' Ἕλλησι καὶ πανταχοῦ μαντεῖα πέπαυται καὶ κεκένωται, εἰ μὴ ὅτε μέχρι γῆς πεφανέρωκεν ἑαυτὸν ὁ Σωτήρ;

§ 46.1 When did men begin to desert the worshiping of idols, save since God, the true Word of God, has come among men? Or when have the oracles among the Greeks, and everywhere, ceased and become empty, save when the Saviour has manifested Himself upon earth?

A. Robertson 1891
Epiphanius Panarion

ὁ γὰρ υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ θεὸς Λόγος, ὡς ἐν πόλει ἁγίᾳ καὶ ἐν ναῷ ἁγίῳ ...
Does the syntax in Ahanasius ὁ ἀληθινὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ Θεὸς Λόγος suggest more than one analysis?
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C. Stirling Bartholomew

Peng Huiguo
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Re: ὁ ἀληθινὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ Θεὸς Λόγος

Post by Peng Huiguo » May 6th, 2019, 3:05 pm

That's an appositive isn't it? Like in Ἰωάννης ὁ βαπτιστὴς, take out the article and you have Ἰωάννης βαπτιστὴς, John, the baptist. Same here

εἰ μὴ ἀφ' οὗ γέγονεν ὁ ἀληθινὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ Θεὸς Λόγος ἐν ἀνθρώποις;
unless godly truth manifests out of God, the Word, in men? (οὗ referring to Θεὸς Λόγος)
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Daniel Semler
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Re: ὁ ἀληθινὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ Θεὸς Λόγος

Post by Daniel Semler » May 6th, 2019, 10:25 pm

Hi ya,

I've not got to Athanasius yet but I had a look. He likes this construction. He uses variations of it in nine places.
I'm seriously tempted to translate ὁ ἀληθινὸς substantively, leading to something like : "the true one of God, God the Word".

Thx
D
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tdbenedict
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Re: ὁ ἀληθινὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ Θεὸς Λόγος

Post by tdbenedict » May 7th, 2019, 1:56 am

When I read the quote cold, I read it as "the true 'God of God' word". He is the true word, which is God of God

That is, a (similar, but not identical) echo of the creed: Θεὸν ἀληθινὸν ἐκ Θεοῦ ἀληθινοῦ.

Whether or not that works grammatically, I don't know.
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Tim Benedict

Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: ὁ ἀληθινὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ Θεὸς Λόγος

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » May 7th, 2019, 10:50 am

dimi wrote:
May 6th, 2019, 3:05 pm
That's an appositive isn't it? Like in Ἰωάννης ὁ βαπτιστὴς, take out the article and you have Ἰωάννης βαπτιστὴς, John, the baptist. Same here

εἰ μὴ ἀφ' οὗ γέγονεν ὁ ἀληθινὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ Θεὸς Λόγος ἐν ἀνθρώποις;
unless godly truth manifests out of God, the Word, in men? (οὗ referring to Θεὸς Λόγος)
I have forgotten, almost, what an appositive is.

" ... take out the article ... "

The article is the key to unraveling the syntax. What does the article pair with? If we look at numerous examples of hyperbaton in Athenasius we find that the article and its substantive are used as end pieces which make a bundle/package and between the article and its substantive we find finite verbs, prepositional phrases, participle clauses ... all which contribute in some manner to the main clause. So the article is important and that leads us to one problem with this citation. There is more than one substantive in the nominative. The pattern found other "bundles" suggests joining ὁ with Λόγος with τοῦ Θεοῦ as an argument. The placement of Θεὸς is not what you would expect for a constituent in apposition, is it? Again, I haven't cracked a grammar over this.
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C. Stirling Bartholomew

Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: ὁ ἀληθινὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ Θεὸς Λόγος

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » May 7th, 2019, 11:04 am

Daniel Semler wrote:
May 6th, 2019, 10:25 pm

I've not got to Athanasius yet but I had a look. He likes this construction. He uses variations of it in nine places.
I'm seriously tempted to translate ὁ ἀληθινὸς substantively, leading to something like : "the true one of God, God the Word".
Yes, Athanasius employs a lot of repetition. Not only verbatim repetition, also restating ideas in different wording. Reading On the Incarnation, which is somewhat longer than Luke's Gospel, you begin to get a feeling for his way of doing things. His style doesn't immediately call to mind any New Testament author.
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C. Stirling Bartholomew

Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: ὁ ἀληθινὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ Θεὸς Λόγος

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » May 7th, 2019, 11:47 am

tdbenedict wrote:
May 7th, 2019, 1:56 am
When I read the quote cold, I read it as "the true 'God of God' word". He is the true word, which is God of God

That is, a (similar, but not identical) echo of the creed: Θεὸν ἀληθινὸν ἐκ Θεοῦ ἀληθινοῦ.

Whether or not that works grammatically, I don't know.
Your analysis admirably demonstrates the difficulty in Athanasius. What creed are you citing?

Here is something from Councils of Ephesus 431

κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς ὁ μονογενὴς υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ, θεὸς λόγος, ὁ αὐτὸς πρὸ μὲν πάντων τῶν αἰώνων ἐκ μόνου πατρός,
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C. Stirling Bartholomew

Peng Huiguo
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Re: ὁ ἀληθινὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ Θεὸς Λόγος

Post by Peng Huiguo » May 7th, 2019, 1:30 pm

The pair-form θεὸς λόγος often appears. I've seen it in Origen, Chrysostom, Orthodox liturgy, theological tract... A few months back, Stirling, you were talking about it right here. Yes it often has an article, but that article always binds tightly to θεός, making the phrase to mean "Word the God" rather than "God the Word", but with "God" moved to the front for emphasis. It's like a divine title. I've even seen it printed as ΘΕΟΣΛΟΓΟΣ apart from the rest of the sentence. Any unravelling must treat this pair as a unit, as that last quote you posted demonstrates in its punctuation.
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Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: ὁ ἀληθινὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ Θεὸς Λόγος

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » May 8th, 2019, 2:03 pm

dimi wrote:
May 7th, 2019, 1:30 pm
The pair-form θεὸς λόγος often appears. I've seen it in Origen, Chrysostom, Orthodox liturgy, theological tract...
Here is something else from the same context:
§ 46.3a Πότε δὲ ἡ δαιμόνων ἀπάτη καὶ μανία κατεφρονήθη, εἰ μὴ ὅτε ἡ τοῦ Θεοῦ Δύναμις ὁ Λόγος, ὁ πάντων καὶ τούτων Δεσπότης, διὰ τὴν τῶν ἀνθρώπων ἀσθένειαν συγκαταβάς, ἐπὶ γῆς ἐφάνη;

§ 46.3a Or when did the deceitfulness and madness of demons fall into contempt, save when the power of God, the Word, the Master of all these as well, condescending because of man's weakness, appeared on earth?
A. Robertson 1891
Where ἡ τοῦ Θεοῦ Δύναμις is in apposition to ὁ Λόγος?
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C. Stirling Bartholomew

Daniel Semler
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Re: ὁ ἀληθινὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ Θεὸς Λόγος

Post by Daniel Semler » May 9th, 2019, 10:45 am

Stirling Bartholomew wrote:
May 8th, 2019, 2:03 pm
Here is something else from the same context:
§ 46.3a Πότε δὲ ἡ δαιμόνων ἀπάτη καὶ μανία κατεφρονήθη, εἰ μὴ ὅτε ἡ τοῦ Θεοῦ Δύναμις ὁ Λόγος, ὁ πάντων καὶ τούτων Δεσπότης, διὰ τὴν τῶν ἀνθρώπων ἀσθένειαν συγκαταβάς, ἐπὶ γῆς ἐφάνη;

§ 46.3a Or when did the deceitfulness and madness of demons fall into contempt, save when the power of God, the Word, the Master of all these as well, condescending because of man's weakness, appeared on earth?
A. Robertson 1891
Where ἡ τοῦ Θεοῦ Δύναμις is in apposition to ὁ Λόγος?
My initial inclination was the reverse. But ... you have three terms here ἡ τοῦ Θεοῦ Δύναμις, ὁ Λόγος and ὁ πάντων καὶ τούτων Δεσπότης. So I expect that two are in apposition to the third. The question is: will the real subject please step forward ? Curiously, I tend to think of Δύναμις as impersonal and Λόγος as personal and more obviously Δεσπότης as personal. Given the verb then I would go with a more personal noun. So perhaps Λόγος as the subject and the other two as apposition. I haven't reviewed apposition in a grammar in reference to this which might be useful. I just got the CGCG on Kindle - that would be a useful first application.

Thx
D
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