Epiphanius, Haer 2.137.6

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Peter Streitenberger
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Epiphanius, Haer 2.137.6

Post by Peter Streitenberger » November 3rd, 2011, 8:53 am

Dear Friends,

in Epiphanius, Haer 2.137.6 it reads:

Καὶ ἐν τούτῳ σοι πολλὴ αἰσχύνη, ὦ Μαρκίων, τοῦ χαρακτῆρος τῆς ἀληθείας σῳζομένου καὶ τῆς παρεκτομῆς τῶν κλεμμάτων σου εὑρισκομένης ἀπὸ τοῦ ἀντιγράφου τοῦ κατὰ Λουκᾶν εὐαγγελίου, τῶν τόπων εὑρισκομένων καὶ τῶν παρὰ σοῦ ἀφαιρεθέντων ἐλεγχομένων.

I'd translate it this way: "And this is a big shame for you, Marcion, as the character of truth is preserved and your removal of the things you've stolen can be discovered from the handwriting of the Gospel of Luke, as the places can be found and your excisions can be discovered"

Now I have problems to understand the last clause and its sense, especially I don't know the reference of "τῶν τόπων εὑρισκομένων". Are these the places where Luke's handwriting is or the places Marcion has stolen?

Is my translation correct ? Please excuse my English, as I'm German.
Yours
Peter

Ken M. Penner
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Re: Epiphanius, Haer 2.137.6

Post by Ken M. Penner » November 3rd, 2011, 9:28 am

Peter Streitenberger wrote:... Καὶ ἐν τούτῳ σοι πολλὴ αἰσχύνη, ὦ Μαρκίων, τοῦ χαρακτῆρος τῆς ἀληθείας σῳζομένου καὶ τῆς παρεκτομῆς τῶν κλεμμάτων σου εὑρισκομένης ἀπὸ τοῦ ἀντιγράφου τοῦ κατὰ Λουκᾶν εὐαγγελίου, τῶν τόπων εὑρισκομένων καὶ τῶν παρὰ σοῦ ἀφαιρεθέντων ἐλεγχομένων.
... "And this is a big shame for you, Marcion, as the character of truth is preserved and your removal of the things you've stolen can be discovered from the handwriting of the Gospel of Luke, as the places can be found and your excisions can be discovered"
Now I have problems to understand the last clause and its sense, especially I don't know the reference of "τῶν τόπων εὑρισκομένων". Are these the places where Luke's handwriting is or the places Marcion has stolen?
ἀντίγραφος is not handwriting, but a transcript or copy. So the "places" are where Marcion has removed words.
Ken M. Penner
St. Francis Xavier University

Peter Streitenberger
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Joined: June 3rd, 2011, 10:45 am

Re: Epiphanius, Haer 2.137.6

Post by Peter Streitenberger » November 3rd, 2011, 9:54 am

Ok, thank you ! I think you're right, Ken ! I better should have used a lexicon....
Yours
Peter

cwconrad
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Re: Epiphanius, Haer 2.137.6

Post by cwconrad » November 3rd, 2011, 10:08 am

Peter Streitenberger wrote:Dear Friends,

in Epiphanius, Haer 2.137.6 it reads:

Καὶ ἐν τούτῳ σοι πολλὴ αἰσχύνη, ὦ Μαρκίων, τοῦ χαρακτῆρος τῆς ἀληθείας σῳζομένου καὶ τῆς παρεκτομῆς τῶν κλεμμάτων σου εὑρισκομένης ἀπὸ τοῦ ἀντιγράφου τοῦ κατὰ Λουκᾶν εὐαγγελίου, τῶν τόπων εὑρισκομένων καὶ τῶν παρὰ σοῦ ἀφαιρεθέντων ἐλεγχομένων.

I'd translate it this way: "And this is a big shame for you, Marcion, as the character of truth is preserved and your removal of the things you've stolen can be discovered from the handwriting of the Gospel of Luke, as the places can be found and your excisions can be discovered"

Now I have problems to understand the last clause and its sense, especially I don't know the reference of "τῶν τόπων εὑρισκομένων". Are these the places where Luke's handwriting is or the places Marcion has stolen?

Is my translation correct ? Please excuse my English, as I'm German.
Yours
Peter
Wenn wir nur so gut Deutsch schreiben vermöchten wie Sie Englisch schreiben, so wären wir wohl μακάριοι.

I think that ἀντιγραφον means "copy": what's meant here is a copy of Luke's gospel from which Marcion has snipped some passages. τόπος, like Latin locus, is used for a "passage" of text, particularly one that is cited.

I assume these genitive noun + participle constructions really are genitive absolutes: "And herein resides your great shame, Marcion, when the stamp of authenticity is preserved ,and (your) snipping away of items stolen from a copy of Luke's gospel comes to light, and the passages of text come to light, and items you've removed get exposed."
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

Peter Streitenberger
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Re: Epiphanius, Haer 2.137.6

Post by Peter Streitenberger » November 3rd, 2011, 10:18 am

Dear Dr. Conrad,

the passage is perfectly clear now ! Thank you so much !
Wenn wir nur so gut Deutsch schreiben vermöchten wie Sie Englisch schreiben, so wären wir wohl μακάριοι
Sehr gut ! You're almost μακάριος !
I assume these genitive noun + participle constructions really are genitive absolutes
Yes, I agree - did I translate it wrong?

Yours
Peter, Germany

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