Καθαρεύουσα

Is vocalizing the Greek words and sentences important? If so, how should Greek be pronounced (what arguments can be made for one pronunciation over another or others?) How can I write Greek characters clearly and legibly?

Καθαρεύουσα

Postby Jonathan Robie » May 24th, 2012, 4:31 pm

Is/was Καθαρεύουσα pronounced the same as modern Greek?

What are the 2d and 3d person plural pronouns in Καθαρεύουσα?
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Re: Καθαρεύουσα

Postby Scott Lawson » May 24th, 2012, 8:31 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:What are the 2d and 3d person plural pronouns in Καθαρεύουσα?


I have σεῖς for 2P pl. nom. and αὐτοί 3P pl. masc. nom./ αὐταί 3P pl. fem.in my textbook on MGreek for Puristic (Καθαρεύουσα).
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Re: Καθαρεύουσα

Postby klriley » May 25th, 2012, 1:33 am

Jonathan Robie wrote:Is/was Καθαρεύουσα pronounced the same as modern Greek?



My understanding is that there was no difference in pronunciation. I suspect most people made a little more effort to avoid the more obvious dialectal pronunciations, but there was not a separate pronunciation system. Kathareuousa was more about grammar and morphology than pronunciation.
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Re: Καθαρεύουσα

Postby Jonathan Robie » May 25th, 2012, 6:00 am

So does it simply use the modern Greek pronouns without modification?
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Re: Καθαρεύουσα

Postby cwconrad » May 25th, 2012, 7:34 am

Scott Lawson wrote:
Jonathan Robie wrote:What are the 2d and 3d person plural pronouns in Καθαρεύουσα?


I have σεῖς for 2P pl. nom. and αὐτοί 3P pl. masc. nom./ αὐταί 3P pl. fem.in my textbook on MGreek for Puristic (Καθαρεύουσα).


I am neither a speaker nor a writer of Katharevousa, but my reference source indicates that the 2nd pl.nom. pronoun is ἐσεῖς rather than σεἰς; the 3rd pl. nom. is indeed αὑτοί. I think there's no distinction whatsoever in pronunciation between Katharevousa and Demotic.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
ὁ ἀναγινώσκων νοείτω
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Re: Καθαρεύουσα

Postby Scott Lawson » May 25th, 2012, 8:53 am

Carl,
My textbook shows ἐσεῖς as the Demotic form. I've only recently taken up studying MGreek since joining Σχολή.
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Re: Καθαρεύουσα

Postby Jonathan Robie » May 25th, 2012, 9:06 am

In modern Greek, I think ἐσεῖς is formal, and σεἰς is informal?

Another question about pronunciation and pronouns: was there ever a period in the history of the Greek language where the 1st person plural and second person plural pronouns were pronounced the same way?

When did the pronouns change relative to the change in pronunciation?
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Re: Καθαρεύουσα

Postby Nikolaos Adamou » May 25th, 2012, 2:52 pm

http://homepage.usask.ca/~jrp638/CourseNotes/greek/5Bpron.pdf

Καθαρεύουσα, as an official language of the Hellenic Republic up to 1981, was more less very closed to the Attic form, particular in its written form.

the sounds of H & Y for a non trained ear are close, and hard to distinguish,
but when one says ΝΥΧΤΑ - ΝΥΞ, or ΗΛΙΟΣ then it shows the difference.

The lower case letters indicate the difference.
in the υ the sound moves down, stays down and then comes up, while in
η the sound moves down and up immediately, then while up moves down again.

the way one writes the letters indicates the way that the sound moves.

BACK to Καθαρεύουσα.
If one looks in google books, books published up to the period before the second world war, it is more close to classical Greek,
From the WWII and after it moves slowly towards the more relaxed forms of demotic greek, particularly in oral forms first and written later.

Before the first world war things were very closed to classical, see the journal ΑΘΗΝΑ as well as in printings in Smyrna, Alexandria Egypt, Constantinupole, Jerusalem, Odessa, Venice, Vienna etc. The level of education of Greeks outside of the Hellenic state was much higher than within the Hellenic state. This reflects the usage of the language as well.
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