γραφει τους λογους

Is vocalizing the Greek words and sentences important? If so, how should Greek be pronounced (what arguments can be made for one pronunciation over another or others?) How can I write Greek characters clearly and legibly?
Scott Verreault
Posts: 9
Joined: March 22nd, 2019, 11:13 am

Re: γραφει τους λογους

Post by Scott Verreault » March 24th, 2019, 9:16 pm

[/quote]

Well, it's not the way they pronounced Koine Greek back then. But it's a common way for people who learn in Western seminaries now. It kind of hurts my ears ... but I hear it a lot.

I think you will find Greek more natural with a pronunciation closer to modern Greek, any one of the common variants on restored Koine pronunciation. If you are interested in the variety of pronunciation used today, here's a quote from an earlier thread that may be helpful.


[/quote]

So I never knew this was such a debate!

I found this quote interesting:

“since it’s helpful for Erasmians to realize there’s an entire country of people who speak Greek and can’t bear to listen to the awful linguistic barbarity known as Erasmian”

So my question would be: Let’s say I was to speak to someone in Greece today - what pronounciation would be most common and accepted?

Here’s a link of some Greek Bible audio I downloaded to listen to. What pronunciation is it?

https://christthetruth.net/2012/06/23/f ... dio-bible/

I haven’t really studied much since yesterday because after I found out there are a few types of pronounciations, I want to make sure I start off on the right foot! I don’t want to end up speaking some acient Greek that there might be some who are still trying to preserve it but at the same time I don’t want to end up prouncing it in a way that is too modern and not professional sounding.

I’m sure there isn’t a perfect right or wrong answer but I’m sure there is a balanced answer.
0 x



Jonathan Robie
Posts: 3628
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:34 pm
Location: Durham, NC
Contact:

Re: γραφει τους λογους

Post by Jonathan Robie » March 24th, 2019, 9:30 pm

Scott Verreault wrote:
March 24th, 2019, 9:16 pm
I found this quote interesting:

“since it’s helpful for Erasmians to realize there’s an entire country of people who speak Greek and can’t bear to listen to the awful linguistic barbarity known as Erasmian”

So my question would be: Let’s say I was to speak to someone in Greece today - what pronounciation would be most common and accepted?
Modern Greek, of course.
Scott Verreault wrote:
March 24th, 2019, 9:16 pm
Here’s a link of some Greek Bible audio I downloaded to listen to. What pronunciation is it?

https://christthetruth.net/2012/06/23/f ... dio-bible/

I haven’t really studied much since yesterday because after I found out there are a few types of pronounciations, I want to make sure I start off on the right foot! I don’t want to end up speaking some acient Greek that there might be some who are still trying to preserve it but at the same time I don’t want to end up prouncing it in a way that is too modern and not professional sounding.

I’m sure there isn’t a perfect right or wrong answer but I’m sure there is a balanced answer.
That's modern Greek pronunciation, read very nicely, but the text is Koine. I really love this recording. But note that ἡμῶν and ὑμῶν are pronounced the same, which is confusing. In modern Greek, these words have been replaced with other words that are not confusing with modern pronunciation.

My favorite balance, currently, is to listen to native Greeks read in recordings like that one, and make just a few changes to the pronunciation so that Koine words are more clearly distinguished from each other. I've already shown you the modifications I use in the handout. I think modern Greeks tend to read with the best expressivity, so I listen to them and read along to avoid being confused by soundalikes. If I read out loud, though, I use a restored pronunciation.
1 x
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Scott Verreault
Posts: 9
Joined: March 22nd, 2019, 11:13 am

Re: γραφει τους λογους

Post by Scott Verreault » March 24th, 2019, 9:39 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:
March 24th, 2019, 8:19 pm


Well, it's not the way they pronounced Koine Greek back then. But it's a common way for people who learn in Western seminaries now. It kind of hurts my ears ... but I hear it a lot.

I think you will find Greek more natural with a pronunciation closer to modern Greek, any one of the common variants on restored Koine pronunciation. If you are interested in the variety of pronunciation used today, here's a quote from an earlier thread that may be helpful.

So I never knew this was such a debate!

I found this quote interesting:

“since it’s helpful for Erasmians to realize there’s an entire country of people who speak Greek and can’t bear to listen to the awful linguistic barbarity known as Erasmian”

So my question would be: Let’s say I was to speak to someone in Greece today - what pronounciation would be most common and accepted?

Here’s a link of some Greek Bible audio I downloaded to listen to. What pronunciation is it?

https://christthetruth.net/2012/06/23/f ... dio-bible/

I haven’t really studied much since yesterday because after I found out there are a few types of pronounciations, I want to make sure I start off on the right foot! I don’t want to end up speaking some acient Greek that there might be some who are still trying to preserve it but at the same time I don’t want to end up prouncing it in a way that is too modern and not professional sounding.

I’m sure there isn’t a perfect right or wrong answer but I’m sure there is a balanced answer.
0 x

Scott Verreault
Posts: 9
Joined: March 22nd, 2019, 11:13 am

Re: γραφει τους λογους

Post by Scott Verreault » March 24th, 2019, 10:18 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:
March 24th, 2019, 9:30 pm


My favorite balance, currently, is to listen to native Greeks read in recordings like that one, and make just a few changes to the pronunciation so that Koine words are more clearly distinguished from each other. I've already shown you the modifications I use in the handout. I think modern Greeks tend to read with the best expressivity, so I listen to them and read along to avoid being confused by soundalikes. If I read out loud, though, I use a restored pronunciation.
Jonathan, you have been very helpful - I really appreciate it!

So if I strictly use the handout you gave me, it sounds like I should have no problem speaking and reading to people speaking modern Greek except for some words here and there that are completely different words. Correct?

And these words I’m sure I will decect and learn as I go and make my own small modifications.
0 x

Barry Hofstetter
Posts: 1621
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: γραφει τους λογους

Post by Barry Hofstetter » March 24th, 2019, 10:21 pm

Scott Verreault wrote:
March 24th, 2019, 9:39 pm

Here’s a link of some Greek Bible audio I downloaded to listen to. What pronunciation is it?

https://christthetruth.net/2012/06/23/f ... dio-bible/
Right on their web page they state:
christthetruth wrote:The Koine Greek (Textus Receptus) audio Bible is now available for download for all who have already learned Greek but don't mind getting used to modern Greek pronunciation (100% native)[/b[...
0 x
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
Χαίρετε ἐν κυρίῳ πάντοτε· πάλιν ἐρῶ, χαίρετε

Jonathan Robie
Posts: 3628
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:34 pm
Location: Durham, NC
Contact:

Re: γραφει τους λογους

Post by Jonathan Robie » March 25th, 2019, 8:45 am

Scott Verreault wrote:
March 24th, 2019, 10:18 pm
Jonathan Robie wrote:
March 24th, 2019, 9:30 pm


My favorite balance, currently, is to listen to native Greeks read in recordings like that one, and make just a few changes to the pronunciation so that Koine words are more clearly distinguished from each other. I've already shown you the modifications I use in the handout. I think modern Greeks tend to read with the best expressivity, so I listen to them and read along to avoid being confused by soundalikes. If I read out loud, though, I use a restored pronunciation.
Jonathan, you have been very helpful - I really appreciate it!

So if I strictly use the handout you gave me, it sounds like I should have no problem speaking and reading to people speaking modern Greek except for some words here and there that are completely different words. Correct?

And these words I’m sure I will decect and learn as I go and make my own small modifications.
I don't know modern Greek, so I am a bad person to ask. Here's my best guess - I suspect you could learn to speak modern Greek reasonably well in a short period of time by learning where the grammar and vocabulary differ. I find that I can communicate very clumsily with people who speak modern Greek. In an Orthodox service, I can follow the liturgy with no difficulty, but when someone announces that there is a red Honda in the parking lot that left its lights on, I am completely lost. I would have to study to be able to handle that part.

I often listen to modern Greeks reading ancient texts, I think they read with the best expression, and I really like the recordings you pointed to. But I modify the pronunciation when I speak to clearly distinguish words like ὑμῶν and ἡμῶν - if I am not reading along, it's really confusing if you can't tell the difference. In modern Greek, they use different words for these pronouns, εσάς and εμάς - words that are easier to distinguish with modern pronunciation - see this Wiktionary page.

So I think it's great to listen to modern pronunciation while reading along, just remember to change your pronunciation in a few key places when you read out loud. Especially if others cannot see the text.
0 x
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Barry Hofstetter
Posts: 1621
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: γραφει τους λογους

Post by Barry Hofstetter » March 25th, 2019, 8:54 am

I'm very flexible on this personally, since even in ancient times there were different dialects of Greek and regional differences in pronunciation even for the Koine period. My principal Greek professor in college used what he called a modified Attic pronunciation, but would occasionally use Erasmean and modern Greek for comparison. When I've pronounced Greek with modern speakers the way I was trained, the majority of them have said that they like it, that it reminds them of "old poetry" and the like. A few have said "No Greek every spoke like that..." :)

However, Latin must always be pronounced using classical pronunciation, regardless of what certain forum members may think. You know who you are.
0 x
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
Χαίρετε ἐν κυρίῳ πάντοτε· πάλιν ἐρῶ, χαίρετε

Stephen Carlson
Posts: 2835
Joined: May 11th, 2011, 10:51 am
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Re: γραφει τους λογους

Post by Stephen Carlson » March 27th, 2019, 10:06 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
March 25th, 2019, 8:54 am
However, Latin must always be pronounced using classical pronunciation, regardless of what certain forum members may think. You know who you are.
I refuse to take the bait every time someone commends the heathen pronunciation of Latin.
0 x
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia

Barry Hofstetter
Posts: 1621
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: γραφει τους λογους

Post by Barry Hofstetter » March 28th, 2019, 9:28 am

Stephen Carlson wrote:
March 27th, 2019, 10:06 pm
Barry Hofstetter wrote:
March 25th, 2019, 8:54 am
However, Latin must always be pronounced using classical pronunciation, regardless of what certain forum members may think. You know who you are.
I refuse to take the bait every time someone commends the heathen pronunciation of Latin.
Augustine used classical pronunciation. Don't ask me how I know. I just know. :shock: :roll:
0 x
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
Χαίρετε ἐν κυρίῳ πάντοτε· πάλιν ἐρῶ, χαίρετε

Stephen Carlson
Posts: 2835
Joined: May 11th, 2011, 10:51 am
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Re: γραφει τους λογους

Post by Stephen Carlson » March 28th, 2019, 7:47 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
March 28th, 2019, 9:28 am
Stephen Carlson wrote:
March 27th, 2019, 10:06 pm
Barry Hofstetter wrote:
March 25th, 2019, 8:54 am
However, Latin must always be pronounced using classical pronunciation, regardless of what certain forum members may think. You know who you are.
I refuse to take the bait every time someone commends the heathen pronunciation of Latin.
Augustine used classical pronunciation. Don't ask me how I know. I just know. :shock: :roll:
Heresy!
0 x
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia

Post Reply

Return to “Alphabet and Pronunciation”