Poiein Indicative Paradigm

How can I best learn the paradigms of nouns and verbs and the other inflected parts of speech?
Chris Servanti
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Joined: September 10th, 2015, 2:30 pm

Poiein Indicative Paradigm

Post by Chris Servanti » September 15th, 2015, 10:01 pm

I just finished the indicative today and spent A LOT of time on this please tell me where I'm wrong:
Image

I am assuming that if a verb has the II Aor it has II everything else. Thanks a lot!

(The dark spots are things I'm fairly confident that I'm wrong about)
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RandallButh
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Re: Poiein Indicative Paradigm of ποιεῖν 'to be doing'

Post by RandallButh » September 16th, 2015, 3:11 am

I am glad to see that you are learning real words that are correct for your chosen dialect,
e.g. ποιῶ (instead of Ionic ποιέω).
Children always learned/learn real words related to real situations. They never consciously "parse words" in talking to themselves, though they learn fairly quickly to choose the correct forms for the correct situations.

You should also have access to tables that will help you see and check the correct forms and that will also lead you to the correct idiomatic voice for a given vocabulary item. See the Greek Morphologia, available at http://www.biblicallanguagecenter.com. It has about two hundred of the most common verbs and patterns listed for you in complete tables for a particular voice of a particular verb (not limited to accidental occurrence of NT forms!), along with a helpful English to Greek index (including some necessary/common words not occurring in NT), and all the noun/adj patterns collected at the back. There are also summary tables at the back of Living Koine Greek 2b that show the different kinds of aorist actives on one table, or the different kinds of perfect middles on one table, etc.

In your table you listed the 'subjunctive' (ὑποτακτική) ποιῶμεθα "we should be doing," instead of the 'indicative' (real statement ὀριστική) ποιοῦμεθα "we are doing."

Check your accents, too, so that you learn to hear and speak with the correct syllable highlighted. πεποίηκα I have done/made ... ἐποίησαν they did/made, ... ἐποιήθησαν they were made, ἐποίουν I was doing/making...

On the perfect middle, there is no passive, only middle. (Yes, the Greeks just used the perfect middle for the passive if a need would arise for describing a passive situation). And normal middle use and indicative forms would be like πεποίησαι τὴν ἀνάγνωσιν "you have done the reading." (PS: This use of middle: ποιοῦμαι "I am doing ...[the doing]" and πεποίημαι "I have done ...[the doing]" is a more literary style in the Koine.)

Just keep going foward, you are doing fine. Language learning is an upward spiraling affair.
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RandallButh
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Re: Poiein Indicative Paradigm

Post by RandallButh » September 16th, 2015, 5:09 am

I will try to paste a page from the morphologia book that has two tables, ποιεῖν to be doing (active) and ποιεῖσθαι to be doing (middle). I will try to paste from a PDF in order to preserve formatting. . . .
--that didn't work.
So I'm trying a JPG, though unsure of the resolution in the final result here:

Image

Looks alot smaller, but maybe that's just my machine.

How does one use such a table?
1. for reference one can check and see how the verb handles something or how it appears in a particular form. This is always useful for adult learners.

2. One can bite off a small piece of the paradigm and play with ONLY that piece. E.g. "I was doing, you were doing, he was doing." Use only that piece in multiple situations and communication. Let the accent pattern sink in deeply, with twenty different usages and examples. 3. Only then, if one wants, try connecting to another small piece. Like jumping from 'I was doing' to 'I am doing', again in appropriate contexts. Listen to the accent shifts. Memorizing whole paradigms is not the road to fluency, although with fluency you will be able to generate the paradigm, at least as far as the language is internalized.
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Chris Servanti
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Re: Poiein Indicative Paradigm

Post by Chris Servanti » September 16th, 2015, 10:11 am

Thank y'all a lot. I'm having a little bit of trouble trying to understand these charts, but I'll try to work on it.
RandallButh wrote:Memorizing whole paradigms is not the road to fluency, although with fluency you will be able to generate the paradigm, at least as far as the language is internalized.
Totally agreed, I formed this paradigm after finishing Mounce's set of chapters on the indicative and memorizing the list of augments, conn. vowels, etc. for each tense.
The problem I'm running into is that it's hard to find a full chart of all 12 indicative tenses with one verb (because that one verb may not appear in all 12 tenses in the NT and definitely not in all the persons) After spending an hour or two putting together that chart and then typing it, I understand how all the tenses relate WAY better. N

ow I just need to see where I was wrong and correct it then do it for αγαπαω (Alpha compound) πληροω (omicron compound) λυω (idk the technical name, ending in non-liquid that will not change by touching vowels) μενω (liquid) and βλεπω (ending with consonant). Am I missing any that I should do to see how different root/stem endings interact with the conjugations?

(Also, am I right in assuming that if a verb has the I Aor Act, it will also have I Aor Mid, I Aor Pas, etc.? Like ποιειν takes the I Aor Act form, so I assumed that means it should take the I Future Pas as well)
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Poiein Indicative Paradigm

Post by Jonathan Robie » September 16th, 2015, 10:53 am

Chris Servanti wrote:
RandallButh wrote:Memorizing whole paradigms is not the road to fluency, although with fluency you will be able to generate the paradigm, at least as far as the language is internalized.
Totally agreed,
!!! SNIP !!!
After spending an hour or two putting together that chart and then typing it, I understand how all the tenses relate WAY better.
Both of these statements make sense to me. Writing these tables out really makes it easier to understand how the verb works, and helps you read. If you want to get fluent in Greek (something I'm still working on), then reading, writing, listening, and speaking are all important.

I like examples that illustrate the various usages, organized systematically, as below. Reading a bunch of these examples seems to help get the morphology into my brain. See this PDF:
ποιεω.pdf
(46.85 KiB) Downloaded 73 times
One way to work on writing is to take verses like those above, write down questions, then write down the answers. For instance:

Mt 21:24 ἐν ποίᾳ ἐξουσίᾳ ταῦτα ποιῶ
τίς ταῦτα ποιεῖ;
ὁ Ἰησοῦς ταῦτα ποιεῖ.
τί ποιεῖ;
διδάσκει ἐν τῷ ἱερῷ.

I've been doing this to prepare for classes, and I find it has helped my fluency significantly.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Poiein Indicative Paradigm of ποιεῖν 'to be doing'

Post by Jonathan Robie » September 16th, 2015, 10:55 am

RandallButh wrote:See the Greek Morphologia, available at http://www.biblicallanguagecenter.com. It has about two hundred of the most common verbs and patterns listed for you in complete tables for a particular voice of a particular verb (not limited to accidental occurrence of NT forms!), along with a helpful English to Greek index (including some necessary/common words not occurring in NT), and all the noun/adj patterns collected at the back.
A very useful resource.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Jonathan Robie
Posts: 3374
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:34 pm
Location: Durham, NC
Contact:

Re: Poiein Indicative Paradigm

Post by Jonathan Robie » September 16th, 2015, 1:11 pm

RandallButh wrote:How does one use such a table?
1. for reference one can check and see how the verb handles something or how it appears in a particular form. This is always useful for adult learners.

2. One can bite off a small piece of the paradigm and play with ONLY that piece. E.g. "I was doing, you were doing, he was doing." Use only that piece in multiple situations and communication. Let the accent pattern sink in deeply, with twenty different usages and examples. 3. Only then, if one wants, try connecting to another small piece. Like jumping from 'I was doing' to 'I am doing', again in appropriate contexts. Listen to the accent shifts. Memorizing whole paradigms is not the road to fluency, although with fluency you will be able to generate the paradigm, at least as far as the language is internalized.
Good advice.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Chris Servanti
Posts: 55
Joined: September 10th, 2015, 2:30 pm

Re: Poiein Indicative Paradigm

Post by Chris Servanti » September 16th, 2015, 3:56 pm

RandallButh wrote:I will try to paste a page from the morphologia book that has two tables, ποιεῖν to be doing (active) and ποιεῖσθαι to be doing (middle). I will try to paste from a PDF in order to preserve formatting. . . .
--that didn't work.
So I'm trying a JPG, though unsure of the resolution in the final result here:

Image

Looks alot smaller, but maybe that's just my machine.

How does one use such a table?
1. for reference one can check and see how the verb handles something or how it appears in a particular form. This is always useful for adult learners.

2. One can bite off a small piece of the paradigm and play with ONLY that piece. E.g. "I was doing, you were doing, he was doing." Use only that piece in multiple situations and communication. Let the accent pattern sink in deeply, with twenty different usages and examples. 3. Only then, if one wants, try connecting to another small piece. Like jumping from 'I was doing' to 'I am doing', again in appropriate contexts. Listen to the accent shifts. Memorizing whole paradigms is not the road to fluency, although with fluency you will be able to generate the paradigm, at least as far as the language is internalized.
Can you write the english names for these greek terms? My book only gives the English tense and aspect names
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Paul-Nitz
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Re: Poiein Indicative Paradigm

Post by Paul-Nitz » September 19th, 2015, 11:29 am

INFINITIVES
ἀπαρέμφατα - Infinitives
(ἡ ἀπαρέμφατος ἔγκλισις – The Infinitive Mood)
IMPERATIVES
προστακτικαὶ ἀόριστοι - Aorist Imperatives
προστακτικαὶ παρατατικαί - “Present” Imperatives (παρατατικός literally, “extending, continuing”)
(ἡ προστακτική ἔγκλισις – The Imperative Mood)
INDICATIVES
(Indicative Mood - ἡ ὁριστική ἔγκλισις)
ἀόριστος χρόνος – Aorist Time (tense)
παρατατικὸς χρόνος – Imperfect Time
παρακείμενος χρόνος – Perfect Time (παρακείμενος literally, “laid down before”)
ἐνεστὼς χρόνος – Present Time
μέλλων χρόνος – Future Time
SUBJUNCTIVE
(Subjunctive Mood - ἡ ὑποτακτική ἔγκλισις)
(ἵνα) ὑποτακτική αορ/παρ - Subjunctive, Aorist / “Present”
PARTICIPLES
(Participle ‘mood’ - ἡ μετοχή ἔγκλισις)
ἀόριστος μετοχή – Aorist Participle
παρακειμένη μετοχή – Perfect Part.
παρατατική μετοχή – “Present” Part.
μέλλουσα μετοχή – Future Part.

You might try thinking of the Indicatives as I describe them to my students. As a short cut term, we call a form such as εποίησα “Aorist.” But the way we THINK of that form is "ἀόριστος ὄψις καὶ ἐχθές” (Aorist in aspect and yesterday, that is, in the Past time).” Likewise ποιῶ is παρατατική ὄψις καὶ νύν (Ongoing aspect and now, that is, in the Present time).

“Present” is a particularly misleading term. A “Present” Participle, for example, has nothing to do with the Present time. παρατατικός (ongoing, extending) is a fine term to add to your thinking about the Greek verb.

See this Google Doc for a more complete listing of Greek grammatical terms:
https://docs.google.com/a/seelsorger.or ... ucHc#gid=0
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Paul D. Nitz - Lilongwe Malawi

RandallButh
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Re: Poiein Indicative Paradigm

Post by RandallButh » September 20th, 2015, 1:58 am

(Also, am I right in assuming that if a verb has the I Aor Act, it will also have I Aor Mid, I Aor Pas, etc.? Like ποιειν takes the I Aor Act form, so I assumed that means it should take the I Future Pas as well)
That is a problem.

Verbs are idiomatic in their choice of [voice] διάθεσις. That is why the Morphologia tables are specific to voice for each verb.
Some voices are not used by a verb, or very rarely, and others will skew the meaning enough between voices to cause a learner to miscommunicate.
Others will shift voices in different tenses.

ἀνίστημι I am raising something up, making something stand up. ἀνίσταμαι I am standing up. But ἵστημι I am setting something up and ἕστηκα I am standing (active perfect!). All little Greek kids thought that was the normal way to talk. Go figure (tongue in cheek)!

I recommend that a learner learn each new verb in an appropriate voice that is correct to desired or common contexts.
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