'en pnuemati'

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'en pnuemati'

Postby lion » April 20th, 2012, 10:40 pm

Hi,

I have a question.

'en pnuemati' is translated as "in Spirit" in John 4:24, yet in Ephesians 5:18, it is translated as "with Spirit". Does anyone know why ?

I understand that the preposition 'en' when it comes before a dative noun case ('pnuemati') is always rendered as "in" not "with". "With" tells us the mode by which something is done, whereas "in" tells us the location.

Thankyou.
lion
 
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Re: 'en pnuemati'

Postby Jonathan Robie » April 21st, 2012, 6:19 am

Hello, and welcome to B-Greek.

First off, a little housekeeping. To post on B-Greek, you need to use your real name as your user name. If you send your name to jonathan dot robie at ibiblio dot org, I will change it for you.

On to your question. Prepositions are tricky, and the simple rule you gave doesn't really describe all the possible meanings of ἐν. Consider the different ways that ἐν πνεύματι is translated in different verses and translations:

http://concordances.org/greek/pneumati.htm

For instance:

αὐτὸς ὑμᾶς βαπτίσει ἐν πνεύματι ἁγίῳ καὶ πυρί·
he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire

Μακάριοι οἱ πτωχοὶ τῷ πνεύματι
Blessed are the poor in spirit

What grammar are you learning from? It probably has a summary of different meanings of the preposition ἐν. As a beginner, the simplest thing might be to take a list of common meanings, like the ones suggested here:

http://greek-language.com/grammar/07.html

ἐν
in, on, at, by, with, among


That's an oversimplification, but the best way to learn the use of prepositions is to read a lot of text. Here are some more advanced discussions of the meaning of ἐν:

Funk
Smyth
LSJ
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
Jonathan Robie
 
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Re: 'en pnuemati'

Postby David Lim » April 21st, 2012, 11:10 am

lion wrote:'en pnuemati' is translated as "in Spirit" in John 4:24, yet in Ephesians 5:18, it is translated as "with Spirit". Does anyone know why ?

I understand that the preposition 'en' when it comes before a dative noun case ('pnuemati') is always rendered as "in" not "with". "With" tells us the mode by which something is done, whereas "in" tells us the location.


I think it is quite safe to say that "εν" always goes with the dative case in Koine Greek, so the case of the noun phrase is not relevant. "εν" is used in many different ways, mainly with the meaning "in / among" (position) or "in / by" (indirect agent), but also "in" (with respect to / according to) or "in" (some period of time) or "at" (a particular point in time)... The actual meaning can only be determined in each context, and is subject to each one's interpretation. Also do not take the English word as an accurate representative of the original preposition, because while it may accurately represent it in one instance, it would not work in another, because the range of the English preposition is different from the range of the Greek preposition.

[John 4] [23] αλλ ερχεται ωρα και νυν εστιν οτε οι αληθινοι προσκυνηται προσκυνησουσιν τω πατρι εν πνευματι και αληθεια και γαρ ο πατηρ τοιουτους ζητει τους προσκυνουντας αυτον [24] πνευμα ο θεος και τους προσκυνουντας αυτον εν πνευματι και αληθεια δει προσκυνειν


Some (http://www.crosswire.org/study/parallel ... hn+4:23#cv) take "εν πνευματι" in John 4:23-24 to mean "in spirit" (which I believe fits the whole sentence best) while others take it to mean "by [the] spirit [of God]" (which is also possible because the article is very often omitted when referring to "the spirit of God").

[Eph 5] [18] και μη μεθυσκεσθε οινω εν ω εστιν ασωτια αλλα πληρουσθε εν πνευματι


In Eph 5:18 however it is much clearer because it is in parallel with "μη μεθυσκεσθε οινω" / "do not be made drunk [by] wine" and so "πληρουσθε εν πνευματι" should therefore mean "be fully filled by [the] spirit".
δαυιδ λιμ
David Lim
 
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