Krino vs. Krima (judgment)

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tculling
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Joined: June 13th, 2014, 7:09 pm

Krino vs. Krima (judgment)

Post by tculling » June 13th, 2014, 7:18 pm

Hi,

I'm preaching through John's gospel and have come to John 9.39 where Jesus says that it was "for judgment that he came into the world." This is sandwiched between a couple other statements about judgment in which Jesus says he did not come to judge (3.17 and 12.47). In 9.39 the greek is krino, and in 3.17 and 12.47 it is krima.

Are krima and krino synonyms?

If not, is krino more in line with condemn and krima is more of an evaluation without the attending condemnation?

Any help on these words would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Tim

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Krino vs. Krima (judgment)

Post by Jonathan Robie » June 14th, 2014, 11:27 am

Hi Tim, and welcome to B-Greek!

On B-Greek, we usually put the verse into the message:
John 9:39 wrote:καὶ εἶπεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς· Εἰς κρίμα ἐγὼ εἰς τὸν κόσμον τοῦτον ἦλθον, ἵνα οἱ μὴ βλέποντες βλέπωσιν καὶ οἱ βλέποντες τυφλοὶ γένωνται.
John 3:17 wrote:οὐ γὰρ ἀπέστειλεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν υἱὸν εἰς τὸν κόσμον ἵνα κρίνῃ τὸν κόσμον, ἀλλ’ ἵνα σωθῇ ὁ κόσμος δι’ αὐτοῦ.
John 12:47 wrote:καὶ ἐάν τίς μου ἀκούσῃ τῶν ῥημάτων καὶ μὴ φυλάξῃ, ἐγὼ οὐ κρίνω αὐτόν, οὐ γὰρ ἦλθον ἵνα κρίνω τὸν κόσμον ἀλλ’ ἵνα σώσω τὸν κόσμον.
Also, even beginners are expected to look up words in a lexicon. I suggest you try installing alpheios.net, which has the Abbott-Smith lexicon built in. That's the easiest way to look up a word, but you can also look it up on this web page. What part of speech is κρίμα? What part of speech is κρίνω? A verb and a noun cannot be synonyms, but they can have related meaning.

Beyond that, words can have a variety if meanings, and context is just as important as the dictionary meaning of a word.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Stephen Hughes
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How children represent the human figure in art

Post by Stephen Hughes » June 15th, 2014, 2:40 am

Let me begin by saying something about the way that 3 and 5 year old children represent people in art. A three year old will draw figures without arms or even noses. A five year old will show hands as circles with single lines as fingers. Nobody would take that level of representation and make definitive scientific statements about human anatomy, right? So don't take the simple things that I will say as the be all and end all of understanding Greek derivational morphology, okay? In other words, what I'm about to say is boring and simple, and no substitute for a thorough study of the language.

The synonym pair you are looking for is κρῖσις -- κρῖμα. You could look those up in a dictionary. Both of them are nouns and in terms of English, both mean "judgement". Greek has two voices, viz. active and middle/passive. In the most crayon-sketch kind of way, κρῖσις corresponds to the active voice, and κρῖμα to the middle/passive. [And just as some verbs only appear in the one voice not the other, so some nouns only occur in one or the other too].

The relevant phrases in the passages that Jonathan has posted for you are
John3:7 wrote:οὐχ ... ἵνα κρίνῃ [ὁ υἱὸς] τὸν κόσμον
and
John 12:47 wrote:ἐγὼ οὐ κρίνω αὐτόν
. They are both in the active voice.

The "synonym" of your question i.e.
John 9:3 wrote:Εἰς κρίμα [τοῦ κόσμου]
is in the form of the noun that at the most simplistic level corresponds to the middle/passive voice. So your question is a question about voice, and you could ask yourself, "Who is being judged?".
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Iver Larsen
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Joined: May 7th, 2011, 3:52 am

Re: Krino vs. Krima (judgment)

Post by Iver Larsen » June 15th, 2014, 3:20 am

tculling wrote:Hi,

I'm preaching through John's gospel and have come to John 9.39 where Jesus says that it was "for judgment that he came into the world." This is sandwiched between a couple other statements about judgment in which Jesus says he did not come to judge (3.17 and 12.47). In 9.39 the greek is krino, and in 3.17 and 12.47 it is krima.

Are krima and krino synonyms?

If not, is krino more in line with condemn and krima is more of an evaluation without the attending condemnation?

Any help on these words would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Tim
The verb κρίνω can have a range of meanings. Louw and Nida list the following senses:
a decide: 30.75
b prefer: 30.99
c evaluate: 30.108
d hold a view: 31.1
e make legal decision: 56.20
f condemn: 56.30
g rule: 37.49

So, it is even wider than English judge. The corresponding noun κρίμα also has a range of meanings. Again Louw and Nida has:
a legal decision: 56.20
b authority to judge: 56.22
c verdict: 56.24
d condemnation: 56.30
e lawsuit: 56.2
f judgment: 30.110

The verb can refer to an evaluation, but the noun is a result idea, so it normally refers to the decision or verdict reached. The varied senses are seen in context rather than in the words in isolation. So, it is not the case that κρίνω is more in line with condemn than evaluate, nor that κρίμα is more of an evaluation.

I think your question relates to the comparisom of the two texts:
John 9:39: καὶ εἶπεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς· Εἰς κρίμα ἐγὼ εἰς τὸν κόσμον τοῦτον ἦλθον, ἵνα οἱ μὴ βλέποντες βλέπωσιν καὶ οἱ βλέποντες τυφλοὶ γένωνται.
John 12:47: καὶ ἐάν τίς μου ἀκούσῃ τῶν ῥημάτων καὶ μὴ φυλάξῃ, ἐγὼ οὐ κρίνω αὐτόν, οὐ γὰρ ἦλθον ἵνα κρίνω τὸν κόσμον ἀλλ’ ἵνα σώσω τὸν κόσμον.

It is interesting to look at the preposition εἰς and the conjunction ἵνα. They are often translated into English in such a way that they appear to indicate purpose, but this is not necessarily the case. They often indicate result, and it is up to the context to determine.
When Jesus says: I did not come so that I judge the world, but rather so that I save the world context tells me that this is primarily purpose. By context I mean to include the whole of John's gospel.
When Jesus says: Towards (a) verdict/judgment I have come into this world, the preposition εἰς cannot refer to purpose and in my view the English words "for" as well as "to" distort the meaning. Rather, as a result of his coming, there will be judgment of those who refuse to believe. As the next sentence clarifies, the result of his coming will be that some who are blind will see and some who are physically seeing will turn out to be spiritually blind.
In this particular case I suggest that the basic idea of κρίμα is more of separating good from bad. BDAG has put this verse in a separate category:

⑥ In John κρίμα shows the same two-sidedness as the other members of the κρίνω family (‘judgment’ and ‘separation’; s. Hdb. on J 3:17), and means the judicial decision which consists in the separation of those who are willing to believe fr. those who are unwilling to do so J 9:39

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Krino vs. Krima (judgment)

Post by Jonathan Robie » June 15th, 2014, 10:18 am

A few more thoughts about context for John 9:39. In this passage, the Pharisees claim to be the ones who see, who know exactly how to judge Jesus, but they judge him wrongly. The blind man is a little more humble:
24 Ἐφώνησαν οὖν τὸν ἄνθρωπον ἐκ δευτέρου ὃς ἦν τυφλὸς καὶ εἶπαν αὐτῷ· Δὸς δόξαν τῷ θεῷ· ἡμεῖς οἴδαμεν ὅτι [z]οὗτος ὁ ἄνθρωπος ἁμαρτωλός ἐστιν. 25 ἀπεκρίθη οὖν ἐκεῖνος· Εἰ ἁμαρτωλός ἐστιν οὐκ οἶδα· ἓν οἶδα ὅτι τυφλὸς ὢν ἄρτι βλέπω.
The blind man does not claim to know if Jesus is a sinner, all he knows is that he was born blind and now he sees. But the Pharisees couldn't explain the miracle, they first tried to deny that the man was ever blind, then they questioned him, trying to figure it out, but never admitting the possibility that Jesus might be sent by God.

The Pharisees then accuse him of being a disciple of Jesus rather than of Moses, and now the Pharisees admit to not knowing one thing - they do not know where Jesus came from:
28 ἐλοιδόρησαν αὐτὸν καὶ εἶπον· Σὺ μαθητὴς εἶ ἐκείνου, ἡμεῖς δὲ τοῦ Μωϋσέως ἐσμὲν μαθηταί· 29 ἡμεῖς οἴδαμεν ὅτι Μωϋσεῖ λελάληκεν ὁ θεός, τοῦτον δὲ οὐκ οἴδαμεν πόθεν ἐστίν.
The blind man then accurately interprets the meaning of what has happened, but all the Pharisees can do is dismiss him as a person, saying that he was born in sin and has nothing to teach them, and sending him away:
30 ἀπεκρίθη ὁ ἄνθρωπος καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς· Ἐν τούτῳ γὰρ τὸ θαυμαστόν ἐστιν ὅτι ὑμεῖς οὐκ οἴδατε πόθεν ἐστίν, καὶ ἤνοιξέν μου τοὺς ὀφθαλμούς. 31 οἴδαμεν ὅτι ἁμαρτωλῶν ὁ θεὸς οὐκ ἀκούει, ἀλλ’ ἐάν τις θεοσεβὴς ᾖ καὶ τὸ θέλημα αὐτοῦ ποιῇ τούτου ἀκούει. 32 ἐκ τοῦ αἰῶνος οὐκ ἠκούσθη ὅτι ἠνέῳξέν τις ὀφθαλμοὺς τυφλοῦ γεγεννημένου· 33 εἰ μὴ ἦν οὗτος παρὰ θεοῦ, οὐκ ἠδύνατο ποιεῖν οὐδέν. 34 ἀπεκρίθησαν καὶ εἶπαν αὐτῷ· Ἐν ἁμαρτίαις σὺ ἐγεννήθης ὅλος, καὶ σὺ διδάσκεις ἡμᾶς; καὶ ἐξέβαλον αὐτὸν ἔξω.
So the passage is all about who can see and who cannot see. The man born blind and made to see is contrasted with the blindness of the Pharisees, who insist more and more loudly that they are the ones who can see, and shut their eyes to Jesus.

Now we come to the verse in question, verse 39:
39 καὶ εἶπεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς· Εἰς κρίμα ἐγὼ εἰς τὸν κόσμον τοῦτον ἦλθον, ἵνα οἱ μὴ βλέποντες βλέπωσιν καὶ οἱ βλέποντες τυφλοὶ γένωνται.
We often think of judgement as the final judgement, but let's consider the senses of the word in Louw and Nida, as Iver has pointed out:
f judgment 30.110
e lawsuit 56.2
a legal decision 56.20
b authority to judge 56.22
c verdict 56.24
d condemnation 56.30
Iver says that in the above verse, the preposition εἰς cannot refer to purpose. I do not yet understand why that is true. To me, the most natural reading is that the judgement is not the final judgement, but judging between those who claim to see by their own knowledge and understanding and those who come to see, not by their own power, but by the transformative power of Jesus.

And that seems to be the way the Pharisees understood what Jesus said:
40 ἤκουσαν ἐκ τῶν Φαρισαίων ταῦτα οἱ μετ’ αὐτοῦ ὄντες, καὶ εἶπον αὐτῷ· Μὴ καὶ ἡμεῖς τυφλοί ἐσμεν; 41 εἶπεν αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς· Εἰ τυφλοὶ ἦτε, οὐκ ἂν εἴχετε ἁμαρτίαν· νῦν δὲ λέγετε ὅτι Βλέπομεν· ἡ ἁμαρτία ὑμῶν μένει.
In this last verse, note that Jesus does not say, "now that you say you see, you are condemned to the final judgement". He says "now that you say you see, your guilt remains". Jesus renders a verdict here, but it is not the last judgement.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Iver Larsen
Posts: 127
Joined: May 7th, 2011, 3:52 am

Re: Krino vs. Krima (judgment)

Post by Iver Larsen » June 15th, 2014, 11:10 am

Jonathan,

Thanks for your added thoughts.

While I was not thinking in terms of final judgment, I had two points in mind.

First, since John 3:17 and 12:47 as Tim pointed out say that Jesus did not come into the world for the purpose of judging the world, but to save it, it sounds as a contradiction to suggest that he says in 9:39 that he came into this world for the purpose of rendering judgment.

Second, both hina and eis often refer to result, especially in John's gospel, but it is generally assumed that they always refer to purpose. I do not consider that a valid assumption for the Greek language we find in the NT period, especially in John.

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