Dearth of images ὑπολύω / ὑποδέω. Suggestions?

How can I best learn new vocabulary items? What aids are there and what pitfalls should be avoided? How does a beginner learn to use a lexicon?
Post Reply
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Dearth of images ὑπολύω / ὑποδέω. Suggestions?

Post by Stephen Hughes » September 2nd, 2015, 3:34 pm

I can't find images for the pair "take shoes off" (vi/vt) / " put shoes on" (vi/vt). My wife suggests I could take them myself. Can any one direct me to where I can find some royalty free ones?
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Shirley Rollinson
Posts: 293
Joined: June 4th, 2011, 6:19 pm
Location: New Mexico
Contact:

Re: Dearth of images ὑπολύω / ὑποδέω. Suggestions?

Post by Shirley Rollinson » September 4th, 2015, 3:27 pm

you probably don't need photos - a simple sketch would do - even black/white
Your probably have some sort of "paint" program already on your computer. If not, there are a bunch available for free download on the web.
Then you'll be set to illustrate anything you want.
I find simple black/white pictures can get the point across with less likelihood of confusion than complex colored photos.

cwconrad
Posts: 2109
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:52 pm
Location: Burnsville, NC 28714
Contact:

Re: Dearth of images ὑπολύω / ὑποδέω. Suggestions?

Post by cwconrad » September 4th, 2015, 3:59 pm

Shirley Rollinson wrote:you probably don't need photos - a simple sketch would do - even black/white
Your probably have some sort of "paint" program already on your computer. If not, there are a bunch available for free download on the web.
Then you'll be set to illustrate anything you want.
I find simple black/white pictures can get the point across with less likelihood of confusion than complex colored photos.
I've been thinking along the same lines since we started the process of uploading images to illustrate Greek words and phrases; a potential problem in many images is that the item of central focus isn't always immediately evident. Sketches, on the other hand, are very nice. I remember way back when working through Homer and using Autenrieth's Homeric dictionary with all its wonderful woodcuts illustrating what the ἀσπίδες of Homeric warriors looked like, what κλεῖδες were like in doorways in Ithaca, etc., etc. In fact, sketches of that sort come closer to what the Greek word γραφή actually implies.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

Louis L Sorenson
Posts: 706
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 9:21 pm
Location: Burnsville, MN, USA
Contact:

Re: Dearth of images ὑπολύω / ὑποδέω. Suggestions?

Post by Louis L Sorenson » September 4th, 2015, 11:44 pm

Even if a person has to pay for an image, it is worth it. Randall Buth's LKG1 book has 1000 drawings. But these drawings are complex drawings (scenes, and not single images.) What a Koine Greek picture book needs (Something like Richard Scarry's picture book - German or English) is lots of individual pictures and lots of "in the context" pictures. The following link is what Adobe's stock images of "take off shoes" returns.
https://stock.adobe.com/search?k=take+o ... ector%5D=1

We can learn from these pictures what the essential elements are for teaching the phrase "take off your shoes." But what a Greek teacher needs is a series of photos that can be used in class and talked about in class. Here is where a sequence helps:


1. Shoe.
2. Another shoe.
3. Shoes.
4. Foot. (barefoot).
5. Foot with shoe.
6. Feet.
7. Feet with shoes.
8. Foot without shoe.
9. Feet without shoes.
10. Feet with shoes.
11. Man/Woman grabs shoe.
12. Man/Woman moves shoe towards foot.
13. Man/Woman puts shoe on foot. (Which foot?)
14. Foot with shoe on it. (Or man/woman with one shoe on a foot).
15. Feet with shoes on them. (Or, man/woman with two shoes on his/her foot.)
16. Shoe on a man's/woman's foot.
17. Shoes on a man's/woman's feet.

At this point, why not add a Dr. Seuz rhyme?
One foot, two foot,
Red foot, blue foot.
This one has a little toe.
This one has the biggest toe.
My! What a lot of toes there are.
I still strongly believe that images are not as valuable as vector art. I have a person who I was friends with in High School, Scott Roberts. He is a great cartoonist. However, he is now fully involved in the production of a publication that believes that 'Aliens' (extraterrestrial) are real and everyday. I've thought about contacting him and even paying him to produce cartoons/drawings for illustrating a beginning Greek textbook. The book "Polis: Speaking Greek as an Ancient Language" by Christophe Rico (2015), uses the illustrator Pau Morales. He could be another resource. We could perhaps start an online crowd-source funding group to build up funds to have an artist create drawings to teach people Koine. Great artists work really fast.

Another current ongoing thread also talks about this issue. The link can be found at viewtopic.php?f=15&t=790&start=30&sid=9 ... b20#p20498

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Dearth of images ὑπολύω / ὑποδέω. Suggestions?

Post by Stephen Hughes » September 5th, 2015, 3:12 pm

It would be great to see things done, not only talked about.

A mass of low-quality badly taken images is really better than any number of discussions that come to no images actually being posted. I encourage others to share the images that they have a right to share. Knowledge does not come from elitist experts, but from the common experience and understanding of the users of the language. A democratisation of imaging Koine Greek will come when enough of the δῆμος posts images. The alternative to abstracted images - cartoons - is the multiple images representing what many people see the words as meaning. In that way the minds of individuals will be trained and able too form their own abstractions from the concrete representations.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Thomas Dolhanty
Posts: 400
Joined: May 20th, 2014, 10:13 am
Location: west coast of Canada

Re: Dearth of images ὑπολύω / ὑποδέω. Suggestions?

Post by Thomas Dolhanty » September 5th, 2015, 10:08 pm

Here is the doodle I did for looking back from the plow:

Image
γράφω μαθεῖν

Louis L Sorenson
Posts: 706
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 9:21 pm
Location: Burnsville, MN, USA
Contact:

Re: Dearth of images ὑπολύω / ὑποδέω. Suggestions?

Post by Louis L Sorenson » September 6th, 2015, 10:48 am

Thanks for this thread. Your verb pair is accurate. But it seems that the middle voice should be used for 'put on' most of the time and the active or middle for 'take off?. LJS lists the middle for ὑπολύω also. Mt, Mk, and John use the simplex (verb without preposition) λῦσαι for untying τὸν ἱμάντα των ὑποδημάτων.
LSJ ὑπολύω:
2 untie a person's sandals from under his feet, take off his shoes, ὑπαί τις ἀρβύλας λύοι A.Ag.944; τὰς Περσικάς Ar.Nu.152, cf. Th.1183:—Med., take off one's own sandals or shoes, or have them taken off, τὰς ἐμβάδας Id.V.1157 (prob. cj. for ὑποδύου): abs., ὑπολύεσθαι, opp. ὑποδεῖσθαι, Id.Lys.950, Pl.927, cf. X.An.4.5.13:—also
The accusative case is used for either what is put on (shoe) or what part of the body it is put on (foot). Did ancient shoes have strings? Most likely they had thongs, so the words for those would be ἱμάς, ἱμάντος, ὁ or ἀγκύλη, ἡ. (I've got a couple of old Serbian leather shoes, and one has a strap with a buckle, and the other two leather straps.) In the NT you untie a thong (singular) not plural (our shoe lace, string is a single string with two ends, so that makes sense, but my Serbian shoes have two attached leather straps, so I wonder should I use the singular or plural?) . So ὑποδέομαι 'put on'
...σάνδαλα ...σανδάλια ...ὑποδήματα..... πεδάλια . . .πόδας. ὑπολύω 'take off', or if you take off your own shoes, perhaps ὑπολύομαι.

Note: The verb and neuter noun related to ἱμάς are used of clothing in general: ἱματίζω, ἱμάτιον, ου, τό

Thong: (A word not used often nowadays for a strap) -- is defined as follows:
1. A narrow strip, as of leather, used for binding or lashing.
2. A whip of plaited leather or cord.
3. A sandal held on the foot by a strip that fits between the first and second toes and is connected to a strap usually passing over the top or around the sides of the foot.
4. A garment for the lower body that exposes the buttocks, consisting of a narrow strip of fabric that passes between the thighs supported by a waistband.

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Dearth of images ὑπολύω / ὑποδέω. Suggestions?

Post by Stephen Hughes » September 6th, 2015, 1:15 pm

Louis L Sorenson wrote:Mt, Mk, and John use the simplex (verb without preposition) λῦσαι for untying τὸν ἱμάντα των ὑποδημάτων.
λῦσαι τὸν ἱμάντα is perhaps just part of the larger process described by ὑπολύειν.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Dearth of images ὑπολύω / ὑποδέω. Suggestions?

Post by Stephen Hughes » September 8th, 2015, 4:17 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Louis L Sorenson wrote:Mt, Mk, and John use the simplex (verb without preposition) λῦσαι for untying τὸν ἱμάντα των ὑποδημάτων.
λῦσαι τὸν ἱμάντα is perhaps just part of the larger process described by ὑπολύειν.
Louis, another example similar to this that I've come across these days is προσψαύειν in Luke 14:46
Luke 14:46 wrote:καὶ αὐτοὶ ἑνὶ τῶν δακτύλων ὑμῶν οὐ προσψαύετε τοῖς φορτίοις
Both of these are like saying "don't even start to", because λῦσαι τὸν ἱμάντα and προσψαύειν are logically the the first in a series of actions that could be described by their contextually larger actions as ὑπολύειν or βοηθᾶν respectively.

The first part of the action is the beginning, and I think that our English idiom would express that as "begin (+ the larger action)" rather than than analysing it and describing the constituent actions.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Shirley Rollinson
Posts: 293
Joined: June 4th, 2011, 6:19 pm
Location: New Mexico
Contact:

Re: Dearth of images ὑπολύω / ὑποδέω. Suggestions?

Post by Shirley Rollinson » September 14th, 2015, 4:10 pm

It's just occurred to me that there are lots of pictures on children's flash-cards for learning vocabulary.
One could get a set of flash cards, add the Greek to the English (or paste over the English) and have a set of Greek picture flash-cards. Or copy the pictures and add the Greek if one wanted it all on the same side.
I don't know if there are any Greek "picture dictionaries", but it might be possible to use one from another language and simply paste Greek words over the originals. As a step up from children's picture dictionaries, there is the great German Duden Bildwörterbuch, and there are probably a bunch of other ones in English also.
As a first step, we might enquire from some of our B-Greekers living in Greece - what sorts of picture dictionaries and flash-cards are already available, and how accessible might they be world-wide?
Thanks
Shirley Rollinson

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest