Kai

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Re: Kai

Postby Mike Burke Deactivated » June 9th, 2012, 8:36 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:
Mike Burke wrote:
David Lim wrote:...In the case of Rev 14:6-9, the syntax indicates that it asserts all three statements to be true: "I saw [a] messenger ...", "another second messenger followed ..." and "another messenger, [a] third, followed them ...". Hope this helps!

Thank you, but I'm more interested in the latter two occurrences of "kai" in that verse.

...εἴ τις προσκυνεῖ τὸ θηρίον καὶ τὴν εἰκόνα αὐτοῦ καὶ λαμβάνει χάραγμα ἐπὶ τοῦ μετώπου αὐτοῦ ἢ ἐπὶ τὴν χεῖρα αὐτοῦ

Could it be translated something like "if any man worship the beast, even his image, even receiving his mark etc"?


I'm not sure what "even his image", etc. means in your translation. What do you mean by this, and what's your argument for translating it this way? Does any translation use 'even' here?

I'm not arguing for this translation, and I don't know of any translation that uses "even" here.

I'd just like to know if there's anything in the grammar or syntax of this verse that can determine whether "kai" has an additive or explanatory connotation.

Does it mean plus or equals?

Could it be paraphrased "if any man worship the beast (i.e. his image, i.e, receive his mark in his forehead or his hand)"?

Is it possible to tell whether the meaning of "kai" is additive (invitation plus tuxedo) or explanatory (a tuxedo is an invitation, or anyone wearing a tuxedo is invited)?
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Re: Kai

Postby David Lim » June 9th, 2012, 10:08 pm

Mike Burke wrote:
David Lim wrote:...In the case of Rev 14:6-9, the syntax indicates that it asserts all three statements to be true: "I saw [a] messenger ...", "another second messenger followed ..." and "another messenger, [a] third, followed them ...". Hope this helps!

Thank you, but I'm more interested in the latter two occurrences of "kai" in that verse.

...εἴ τις προσκυνεῖ τὸ θηρίον καὶ τὴν εἰκόνα αὐτοῦ καὶ λαμβάνει χάραγμα ἐπὶ τοῦ μετώπου αὐτοῦ ἢ ἐπὶ τὴν χεῖρα αὐτοῦ

Could it be translated something like "if any man worship the beast, even his image, even receiving his mark etc"?


Ah okay. Look at the structure of the whole first:
Code: Select all
εἴ
{
 τις
 {
  { προσκυνεῖ { { τὸ θηρίον } καὶ { τὴν εἰκόνα αὐτοῦ } } }
  καὶ
  { λαμβάνει χάραγμα ( { ἐπὶ τοῦ μετώπου αὐτοῦ } ἢ { ἐπὶ τὴν χεῖρα αὐτοῦ } ) }
 }
}
...

The first "και" joins "το θηριον" and "την εικονα αυτου", making them both the direct object of "προσκυνει".
The second "και" joins "προσκυνει ..." and "λαμβανει ...", making them both the main verb for the subject "τις".
As before, "και" in each case asserts both clauses/phrases. In other words:
"if anyone not only makes obeisance to both the beast and his image, but also receives [a] mark either upon his forehead or upon his hand, ..."
Actually you need the rest of the sentence to determine the structure, and there is no other way to decompose the sentence.

Mike Burke wrote:I'd just like to know if there's anything in the grammar or syntax of this verse that can determine whether "kai" has an additive or explanatory connotation.

Does it mean plus or equals?

Could it be paraphrased "if any man worship the beast (i.e. his image, i.e, receive his mark in his forehead or his hand)"?

Is it possible to tell whether the meaning of "kai" is additive (invitation plus tuxedo) or explanatory (a tuxedo is an invitation, or anyone wearing a tuxedo is invited)?

If "και" joins two clauses/phrases, it asserts both. To convey "i.e.", "τουτ εστιν" (adverbial; see Acts 19:4 and Rom 1:12) or "ο εστιν" (adjectival) can be used. To convey that two are referring to identical entities, you put them in apposition.
Last edited by David Lim on June 9th, 2012, 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kai

Postby Stephen Carlson » June 9th, 2012, 10:20 pm

Mike Burke wrote:I'd just like to know if there's anything in the grammar or syntax of this verse that can determine whether "kai" has an additive or explanatory connotation.

Does it mean plus or equals?

Could it be paraphrased "if any man worship the beast (i.e. his image, i.e, receive his mark in his forehead or his hand)"?

Is it possible to tell whether the meaning of "kai" is additive (invitation plus tuxedo) or explanatory (a tuxedo is an invitation, or anyone wearing a tuxedo is invited)?


Καί is generally additive. If the items are parallel (syntactically), English will use "and"; if the items are not parallel, English will use "also." If added item is surprising or more extreme, English will use "even" instead of "also." In some circumstances, καί can be explicative (BDAG καί 1c, p. 495), but this option should only be resorted to when it is fairly clear from the context that the author is adding another item as a means of explaining it. So even in explicative cases, there is still the sense of addition.

Since Greek has other, clearer ways of explication, I would only resort to an explicative understating of καί when the context is crystal clear. If you have to puzzle over it, it's not clear enough. In Rev 14:9, it is not clearly explicative, and I am satisfied with the simple additive sense of the conjunction.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D. (Duke)
Post-Doctoral Fellow, Faculty of Theology, Uppsala
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Re: Kai

Postby Mike Burke Deactivated » September 7th, 2012, 7:36 pm

I've been told that "kai" could legitimately be translated "and" in John 3:5 and Matthew 3:11.

If that's true, why would it be true in those passages, and not in Rev. 14:9?

Is there any relevant difference in the grammar or sentence structure?
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Re: Kai

Postby David Lim » September 7th, 2012, 9:59 pm

Mike Burke wrote:I've been told that "kai" could legitimately be translated "and" in John 3:5 and Matthew 3:11.

If that's true, why would it be true in those passages, and not in Rev. 14:9?

Is there any relevant difference in the grammar or sentence structure?


I think you meant to say that you have been told that "και" could be translated as "even" in those two places. However that is not relevant. "εαν μη τις γεννηθη εξ υδατος και πνευματος ..." simply means "unless someone is begotten out of water and spirit, ...". "αυτος υμας βαπτισει εν πνευματι αγιω και πυρι" simply means "he will immerse you in holy spirit and fire". Even if a translation uses "even" in those places, a reader would understand it to mean the conjunction of two things and not that one is other. But it would convey a greater emphasis on the second, which is not present in the original, so "even" would not be accurate.
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Re: Kai

Postby Mike Burke Deactivated » September 7th, 2012, 11:56 pm

David Lim wrote:I think you meant to say that you have been told that "και" could be translated as "even" in those two places.

Yes, sorry.

I meant to ask whether "kai" could be taken in an explicative sense in those verses (i.e. the Holy Spirit cleasing like water, or purging like fire.)?

David Lim wrote:However that is not relevant. "εαν μη τις γεννηθη εξ υδατος και πνευματος ..." simply means "unless someone is begotten out of water and spirit, ...". "αυτος υμας βαπτισει εν πνευματι αγιω και πυρι" simply means "he will immerse you in holy spirit and fire". Even if a translation uses "even" in those places, a reader would understand it to mean the conjunction of two things and not that one is other. But it would convey a greater emphasis on the second, which is not present in the original, so "even" would not be accurate.

I'm not sure I understand you.

It would seem to me that if the Apostles were baptized, it was (by John) three and a half years before Pentecost; and they, 108 others, and the members of one gentile household were the only ones whose baptism with the Holy Spirit was accompanied by any manifestation of literal fire.

How could both texts clearly mean "the conjunction of two things and not that one is the other" if the reader would have to understand the two elements of the one text to be seperated by three and a half years, and one of the elements of the other text to be figurative?

I don't want to get into theological interpretation, but I suspect you're giving me yours when you say
"εαν μη τις γεννηθη εξ υδατος και πνευματος ..." simply means "unless someone is begotten out of water and spirit, ...". "αυτος υμας βαπτισει εν πνευματι αγιω και πυρι" simply means "he will immerse you in holy spirit and fire". Even if a translation uses "even" in those places, a reader would understand it to mean the conjunction of two things and not that one is other.


If that's true (and not just a theological interpretation), I'd like someone to explain why "and" is the only legitimate way to translate "kai" in these texts?

To re-state my original question (as I meant to state it):

I've been told that "kai" could legitimately be translated "even" in John 3:5 and Matthew 3:11.

If that's true, why would it be true in those passages, and not in Rev. 14:9?

Is there any grammatical rule that would make such a translation acceptible in John 3:5 and Matthew 3:11, but not in Rev. 14:9?
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Re: Kai

Postby David Lim » September 8th, 2012, 1:28 am

Mike Burke wrote:I meant to ask whether "kai" could be taken in an explicative sense in those verses (i.e. the Holy Spirit cleasing like water, or purging like fire.)?


To say that, the writers would have written "γεννηθη εκ πνευματος ως εξ υδατος" and "βαπτισει εν πνευματι αγιω ως εν πυρι".

Mike Burke wrote:I'm not sure I understand you.

It would seem to me that if the Apostles were baptized, it was (by John) three and a half years before Pentecost; and they, 108 others, and the members of one gentile household were the only ones whose baptism with the Holy Spirit was accompanied by any manifestation of literal fire.

How could both texts clearly mean "the conjunction of two things and not that one is the other" if the reader would have to understand the two elements of the one text to be seperated by three and a half years, and one of the elements of the other text to be figurative?


When I said that there are two things in conjunction, I did not mean to imply that both must come at the same time, just as when we say "I have been to both the United States and Japan.". This also means that the "immersion in fire" may occur at some time far into the future, if it hasn't occurred yet.

Mike Burke wrote:I don't want to get into theological interpretation, but I suspect you're giving me yours when you say
"εαν μη τις γεννηθη εξ υδατος και πνευματος ..." simply means "unless someone is begotten out of water and spirit, ...". "αυτος υμας βαπτισει εν πνευματι αγιω και πυρι" simply means "he will immerse you in holy spirit and fire". Even if a translation uses "even" in those places, a reader would understand it to mean the conjunction of two things and not that one is other.


If that's true (and not just a theological interpretation), I'd like someone to explain why "and" is the only legitimate way to translate "kai" in these texts?


I was not giving my theological interpretation but simply what the text says, since I do not believe in multiple meanings unless made obvious by the writer, thus I just took the obvious meaning. If you suggest that the obvious meaning is otherwise, I would like to see any clear example of "και" being used completely without a conjunctive sense, such that it is impossible to take it to mean something like "and" or "also". It might actually be that those suggesting that "even" is a possible translation in those places are relying on some kind of theological interpretation.

The reason why it simply means "and" is because it joins two clauses of the same type, in these two cases two noun phrases, thus it says "unless someone is begotten out of water and is begotten out of spirit, ..." and "he will immerse you in holy spirit and he will immerse you in fire" respectively.

Mike Burke wrote:To re-state my original question (as I meant to state it):
I've been told that "kai" could legitimately be translated "even" in John 3:5 and Matthew 3:11.
If that's true, why would it be true in those passages, and not in Rev. 14:9?
Is there any grammatical rule that would make such a translation acceptible in John 3:5 and Matthew 3:11, but not in Rev. 14:9?


So I would say that there is no difference in the syntactical function of "και" in these three places.
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Re: Kai

Postby Mike Burke Deactivated » September 8th, 2012, 2:03 am

David Lim wrote:
Mike Burke wrote:If you suggest that the obvious meaning is otherwise, I would like to see any clear example of "και" being used completely without a conjunctive sense, such that it is impossible to take it to mean something like "and" or "also".


How about Ephesians 4:32?

γίνεσθε δὲ εἰς ἀλλήλους χρηστοί, εὔσπλαγχνοι, χαριζόμενοι ἑαυτοῖς καθὼς καὶ ὁ Θεὸς ἐν Χριστῷ ἐχαρίσατο ὑμῖν

Shouldn't that be translated "And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you"?

David Lim wrote:
Mike Burke wrote:To re-state my original question (as I meant to state it):
I've been told that "kai" could legitimately be translated "even" in John 3:5 and Matthew 3:11.
If that's true, why would it be true in those passages, and not in Rev. 14:9?
Is there any grammatical rule that would make such a translation acceptible in John 3:5 and Matthew 3:11, but not in Rev. 14:9?


So I would say that there is no difference in the syntactical function of "και" in these three places.


Does anyone see any difference?
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Re: Kai

Postby Mike Burke Deactivated » September 8th, 2012, 2:38 am

Jason Hare wrote:Yes, καί means "even" at times, when we can take the two things joined as the same thing, the second being a restatement of the first...


Can you give me some examples?
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Re: Kai

Postby David Lim » September 8th, 2012, 2:49 am

Mike Burke wrote:
David Lim wrote:
Mike Burke wrote:If you suggest that the obvious meaning is otherwise, I would like to see any clear example of "και" being used completely without a conjunctive sense, such that it is impossible to take it to mean something like "and" or "also".


How about Ephesians 4:32?

γίνεσθε δὲ εἰς ἀλλήλους χρηστοί, εὔσπλαγχνοι, χαριζόμενοι ἑαυτοῖς καθὼς καὶ ὁ Θεὸς ἐν Χριστῷ ἐχαρίσατο ὑμῖν

Shouldn't that be translated "And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you"?


You misconstrued which words in the Greek text correspond to which parts of the translation:
"και" takes the whole clause "ο θεος εν χριστω εχαρισατο υμιν" as its complement.
"καθως" takes "και ο θεος εν κριστω εχαρισατο υμιν" as its complement.
"καθως και ο θεος εν χριστω εχαρισατο υμιν" adverbially modifies "χαριζομενοι".

So the whole phrase means "granting [forgiveness] to each other, just as also God granted [forgiveness] in Christ to you". It asserts two things, "you are to grant forgiveness to each other", and "God granted forgiveness in Christ to you".
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