αιδιος

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αιδιος

Postby RobertBeecham » December 12th, 2011, 4:56 pm

Could the word αιδιος in the following 2 verses mean unseen (derived from α-ειδω as with Hades) rather than eternal (derived from α-ει)? In both cases unseen seems to fit the context better.

αγγελους τε τους μη τηρησαντας την εαυτων αρχην αλλα απολιποντας το ιδιον οικητηριον εις κρισιν μεγαλης ημερας δεσμοις αιδιοις υπο ζοφον τετηρηκεν (Jude 6)

τα γαρ αορατα αυτου απο κτισεως κοσμου τοις ποιημασιν νοουμενα καθοραται η τε αιδιος αυτου δυναμις και θειοτης εις το ειναι αυτους αναπολογητους (Rom 1: 20)
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Re: αιδιος

Postby cwconrad » December 12th, 2011, 10:20 pm

RobertBeecham wrote:Could the word αιδιος in the following 2 verses mean unseen (derived from α-ειδω as with Hades) rather than eternal (derived from α-ει)? In both cases unseen seems to fit the context better.

αγγελους τε τους μη τηρησαντας την εαυτων αρχην αλλα απολιποντας το ιδιον οικητηριον εις κρισιν μεγαλης ημερας δεσμοις αιδιοις υπο ζοφον τετηρηκεν (Jude 6)

τα γαρ αορατα αυτου απο κτισεως κοσμου τοις ποιημασιν νοουμενα καθοραται η τε αιδιος αυτου δυναμις και θειοτης εις το ειναι αυτους αναπολογητους (Rom 1: 20)


The same questions were raised by the poster on the old B-Greek mailing list in 2003 as can be seen in the B-Greek Archives.
lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2003-October/026522.html
lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2003-October/026565.html
lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2003-October/026581.html

There are serious etymologcal difficulties, however fascinating the suggested association may seem.

Not many are likely to agree that ἀΐδιος makes more sense in these verses understood as meaning “unseen” rather than “eternal/everlasting.”

ἀ-ειδ doesn’t work as alpha privative plus root ϝειδ/ϝοιδ/ϝιδ -- there is a verb with Homeric form ἀείδω Attic ᾄδω and it means “sing.”

There is an attested adjective derived from alpha privative plus root ϝειδ/ϝοιδ/ϝιδ; it is ἄϊστος; it is a word found only in poetry and not found in the GNT.

The ordinary word for “unseen” appears right in one of the verses you’ve cited, Rom 1:20; it is ἀόρατος (alpha privative + root ὁρα-

There is age-old speculation about the name of the god of the underworld Ἅιδης or ᾅδης and a possible derivation from alpha privative + root ϝιδ, but such a possibility is obviated by the rough breathing regularly found over the initial alpha. The etymology is a fanciful one.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
ἄτοπον, ἔφη, λέγεις εἰκόνα καὶ δεσμώτας ἀτόπους.
ὁμοίους ἡμῖν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ. Plato, Rep. 7 (515a)
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Re: αιδιος

Postby RobertBeecham » December 15th, 2011, 8:40 am

Thanks for your comments, Carl.

I had forgotten our previous discussion (of 8 years ago) on this subject! Maybe mild senile amnesia!

I bow to your superior knowledge on the derivation of ἀΐδιος

However you stated in your previous post "While I still don't think that there's any original etymological association between AIDIOS and AiDHS (in older Greek one regularly uses the proper name in the genitive AiDOU, "Hades' place" or "the house of Hades"), I think that the two came at some point to be associated;"

In view of this I would however hold onto my point that in Jude 6 "chains of the unseen world" makes much better sense than "eternal chains" for angels awaiting judgment.

Also that in Rom 1: 20: τα γαρ αορατα αυτου απο κτισεως κοσμου τοις ποιημασιν νοουμενα καθοραται η τε αιδιος αυτου δυναμις και θειοτης it makes good sense if αιδιος is echoing αορατα and both have the meaning of unseen

Also I found a passage in Greek literature that I cannot now re-find, stating that one αιδιος year was equivalent to 7 normal years. Again, a year "in the unseen realm of the gods" would make far more sense than an "eternal" year.

Could it be that this link bewteen αιδιος and αδου, though not original, was established in the minds of Paul and Jude and others?

Interestingly Paul says: τα γαρ βλεπομενα προσκαιρα τα δε μη βλεπομενα αιωνια.
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Re: αιδιος

Postby cwconrad » December 15th, 2011, 2:48 pm

RobertBeecham wrote:Thanks for your comments, Carl.

I had forgotten our previous discussion (of 8 years ago) on this subject! Maybe mild senile amnesia!

I bow to your superior knowledge on the derivation of ἀΐδιος

However you stated in your previous post "While I still don't think that there's any original etymological association between AIDIOS and AiDHS (in older Greek one regularly uses the proper name in the genitive AiDOU, "Hades' place" or "the house of Hades"), I think that the two came at some point to be associated;"


That's what I wrote in 2003. I should clarify that by saying that I think there was a popular etymology associating the underworld as indicated by the name Ἅιδης with the combination of α-privative + the verbal root ϝιδ "see", it is clearly a false etymology. It was simply and absolutely wrong to see any relationship whatsoever between the adjective ἀΐδιος and that combination.

RobertBeecham wrote:In view of this I would however hold onto my point that in Jude 6 "chains of the unseen world" makes much better sense than "eternal chains" for angels awaiting judgment.

Also that in Rom 1: 20: τα γαρ αορατα αυτου απο κτισεως κοσμου τοις ποιημασιν νοουμενα καθοραται η τε αιδιος αυτου δυναμις και θειοτης it makes good sense if αιδιος is echoing αορατα and both have the meaning of unseen

Also I found a passage in Greek literature that I cannot now re-find, stating that one αιδιος year was equivalent to 7 normal years. Again, a year "in the unseen realm of the gods" would make far more sense than an "eternal" year.

Could it be that this link bewteen αιδιος and αδου, though not original, was established in the minds of Paul and Jude and others?

Interestingly Paul says: τα γαρ βλεπομενα προσκαιρα τα δε μη βλεπομενα αιωνια.


No, I do not believe that any link between the adjective ἀΐδιος and the proper noun Ἅιδης was in the minds of Paul or Jude. I think rather that such an association is more likely to be found in the sort of etymological fantasizing to be found in Plato's Cratylus. As for the text of 2 Cor 4:18 "τὰ γὰρ βλεπόμενα πρόσκαιρα, τὰ δὲ μὴ βλεπόμενα αἰώνια," although it involves words indicating both sight and eternity, I don't see anything at all here bearing on the usage of the adjective ἀΐδιος. Nor do I see any reason to think that ἀΐδιος in Rom 1:20 and Jude 6 means anything other than "eternal."
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
ἄτοπον, ἔφη, λέγεις εἰκόνα καὶ δεσμώτας ἀτόπους.
ὁμοίους ἡμῖν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ. Plato, Rep. 7 (515a)
cwconrad
 
Posts: 1108
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:52 pm
Location: Burnsville, NC 28714


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