Modern Greek verses Koine Greek John 1:1

How do I work out the meaning of a Greek text? How can I best understand the forms and vocabulary in this particular text?
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Re: Modern Greek verses Koine Greek John 1:1

Postby Dean_Poulos » March 3rd, 2013, 6:13 pm

David,

I pulled this from the unbound bible link; I had not seen this website before. 1 Cor 14.1

“Εαν λαλω τας γλωσσας των ανθρωπων και των αγγελων, αγαπην δε μη εχω, εγεινα χαλκος ηχων η κυμβαλον αλαλαζον.” (called Modern on the unbound)
Ἐὰν ταῖς γλώσσαις τῶν ἀνθρώπων λαλῶ καὶ τῶν ἀγγέλων, ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω, γέγονα χαλκὸς ἠχῶν ἢ κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον. (Byzantine)

The version in the unbound bible is not Modern Greek. It is the Βάμβας or the Katharevousa version from the 19th century. I know people have discussed it here in the past. IMHO, painful to the eyes. I’ll see if I hear back from Biola. sword-feedback@crosswire.org

Modern may be rendered, rather loosely:

Αν ξέρω να μιλώ όλες τις γλώσσες των ανθρώπων και των αγγέλων, αλλά δεν έχω αγάπη, τότε έγινα σαν ένας άψυχος χαλκός που βουίζει ή σαν κύμβαλο που ξεκουφαίνει με τους κρότους του. (Literal)
Although the above is correct, it really, really, hurts to read it, Katharevousa mixes elements of Koine and I really don’t get it. (no offense to anyone, this is just one Greek’s opinion).

A little better might be:

Αν μπορώ να λαλώ όλες τις γλώσσες των ανθρώπων, *ακόμα* και των αγγέλων, αλλά δεν έχω αγάπη [για τους άλλους], οι λόγοι μου ακούγονται σαν ήχος χάλκινης καμπάνας ή σαν κυμβάλου αλαλαγμός.

Going back to John 1.1 in the Katharevousa version which may be found here: http://www.gospel.gr/#tree=43.1.1

Εν αρχή ήτο ο Λόγος, και ο Λόγος ήτο παρά τω Θεώ, και Θεός ήτο ο Λόγος.

BTW, παρά means over in modern.

The modern irregular verbs είμαι (I am) and I may as well add, έχω (I have), carry only a single past tense, there is no imperfect and past tenses.

Καί Θεός ήταν ὁ Λόγος.

είμαι (I am) conjugated in the past tense.

ήμουν ήμαστε
ήσουν ήσαστε
ήταν ήταν

The above would be the correct modern rendering.

3rd PS and 3 PP are the same in modern.

Another example could be:

Ο Ευκλείδης [ήταν] Έλληνας μαθηματικός, που δίδαξε στην Αλεξάνδρεια της Αιγύπτου. ("Στις μέρες μας") είναι γνωστός ως ο πατέρας της γεωμετρίας.

Euclid was a Greek mathematician who taught in Alexandria, Egypt. Today (lit. "in our days") he is known as the father of geometry.

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Re: Modern Greek verses Koine Greek John 1:1

Postby Dean_Poulos » March 3rd, 2013, 6:14 pm

Sorry I meant 13.1.
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Re: Modern Greek verses Koine Greek John 1:1

Postby David Lim » March 3rd, 2013, 10:18 pm

Dean_Poulos wrote:[...]
The version in the unbound bible is not Modern Greek. It is the Βάμβας or the Katharevousa version from the 19th century. I know people have discussed it here in the past. IMHO, painful to the eyes. I’ll see if I hear back from Biola. sword-feedback@crosswire.org
[...]

Really sorry I didn't know what it called "Modern Greek" wasn't :? And I didn't check before I posted! :oops:

Dean_Poulos wrote:The modern irregular verbs είμαι (I am) and I may as well add, έχω (I have), carry only a single past tense, there is no imperfect and past tenses.

Καί Θεός ήταν ὁ Λόγος.

είμαι (I am) conjugated in the past tense.

ήμουν ήμαστε
ήσουν ήσαστε
ήταν ήταν

The above would be the correct modern rendering.

3rd PS and 3 PP are the same in modern.
[...]

Same here. Sorry to all. Also, I believe the one on CCEL that George also found is the exact same one that is hosted on the Unbound Bible. So that one also has the wrong name.
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Re: Modern Greek verses Koine Greek John 1:1

Postby Dean_Poulos » March 5th, 2013, 2:57 pm

David,

There is not one even one (tautological alert) jot or tittle of a reason for any apology. Your contributions to things I have learned “lurking” and everyone else’s on B-Greek far outweigh any I have made.

Further, this thread sent me on a fishing expedition which yielded a number of rather interesting results.

First, there is no purely Modern Demotic online version I could track down, however, apparently after Greece made Demotic the official language in 1976, bibles were then officially sanctioned and legal. (Creepy)

The below is in the dative I assume. I can’t explain why, other than I know what it means, having heard people say it, despite never using it. I also only now realized where it came from. A carry-over from guess where?

εν ονόματι (in the name of)

εἰς τό ὄνομα τοῦ - That is how most people I know (including me) say (in the name of) in Modern. Yes, I realize it’s Koine and it’s possible it was drilled into my head and others who were forced into a Parochial Greek school for 12 years. : - ) Confusing, I know.

I found what I bellieve is a truly Demotic version online and my guess is Orthodox website probably sell them.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Holy-Bible-Mo ... ewpoints=1

Not something I’ll be ordering any time soon; it would only set my Koine studies further back. However, I did find some odd stuff on Katharevousa. It’s also said Katharevousa was the result of diglossia and Atticism, which I don’t get, was that not 150-100 B.C.?

http://betterbibles.com/2007/05/27/the- ... ern-greek/

Why the Watchtower would release such a statement and some of the comments below it are puzzling.

While Katharevousa hurts [my] eyes, it has not created an indefinite article for John 1 or Titus 2:13 and my favorite abolitionist Mr. (article substantive καί substantive) Sharpe remains as a “Solid Rock.”

Thanks David..

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Re: Modern Greek verses Koine Greek John 1:1

Postby Scott Lawson » March 7th, 2013, 4:38 am

Dean_Poulos wrote:First, there is no purely Modern Demotic online version I could track down...


Dean,
Are you saying that the NWT in modern Greek which is available online is not purely Modern Demotic?

http://www.jw.org/el/εκδόσεις/αγία-γραφή-online/Ιωάννης/1#v-1
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Re: Modern Greek verses Koine Greek John 1:1

Postby Dean_Poulos » March 7th, 2013, 2:11 pm

Scott Lawson wrote:
Dean_Poulos wrote:First, there is no purely Modern Demotic online version I could track down...


Dean,
Are you saying that the NWT in modern Greek which is available online is not purely Modern Demotic?

http://www.jw.org/el/εκδόσεις/αγία-γραφή-online/Ιωάννης/1#v-1


Hi Scott,

I suppose one could say (if they clung to a self-refuting strict evidentialist epistemology) that was Modern. :lol:

However, since the website has their source code locked and it would take me some time to download all the code to simply be able to copy/paste their self-created John 1.1, I’ll simply say, while one may call it Modern Demotic, it also has many [not only John 1.1] typos and grammatical errors and those errors seem to be <b>focused<b>

Also, their direct links are self-corrupting, unless you can fix them and I’m uncertain if my syntax will work here, but I’ll give it a shot. They take you to the beginning (I can't imagine why).

<a href="http://www.jw.org/el/εκδόσεις/ αγία-γραφή-online/Ιωάννης/1#v-1"</a>

Also, the translator stutters. Then again, my syntax above will likely stutter as well. :mrgreen:

Starting with my above broken code link “In the beginning was the word and the word was ***with with***.

I should have stopped there, however I’m glad I examined it a bit further. To be unbiased, let’s just say in my view the Watchtower Scholars made errors.

Since I can’t copy paste (what they typed in Greek letters) without first downloading all their code, putting it in Adobe Dreamweaver and conducting a check, I’ll retype it except not not using their Greek letters:

STHV ARCHi HTAV hO LOGOS, KAI hO LOGOS HTAV [MAZI ME] [TOV QEO,] KAI [hO LOGOS HTAV QEOS.]

Translation:

In the beginning was the word and the word was WITH WITH THE god and the word was a god.

Actual Modern Greek:

STHV ARCHi HTAV hO LOGOS, KAI hO LOGOS HTAV ME TOV QEOV, KAI QEOS HTAV hO LOGOS.

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

This is also possible, but really pushing it and I’d call it bad Modern Greek, however, it will render the above translation I suppose:

STHV ARCHi HTAV hO LOGOS, KAI hO LOGOS HTAV ME [TW QEW,] KAI QEOS HTAV hO LOGOS.

I will rephrase and BTW, thank you for that Scott.

I still cannot find a completely accurate Modern Demotic Greek version online, nor can I find one which would not corrupt any of the Koine MSS that I know of.
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Re: Modern Greek verses Koine Greek John 1:1

Postby Scott Lawson » March 7th, 2013, 3:01 pm

Dean_Poulos wrote:Hi Scott,

I suppose one could say (if they clung to a self-refuting strict evidentialist epistemology) that was Modern.


Dean...your above comment creates a bit of "cognitive dissonance" for me... :shock:
Dean_Poulos wrote:
Also, the translator stutters. Then again, my syntax above will likely stutter as well.

Starting with my above broken code link “In the beginning was the word and the word was ***with with***.

I should have stopped there, however I’m glad I examined it a bit further. To be unbiased, let’s just say in my view the Watchtower Scholars made errors.


Sooo....you are indeed saying that the translators of the NWT in Greek stuttered and made errors in "Modern Demotic" or Romaic. Yes?
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Re: Modern Greek verses Koine Greek John 1:1

Postby Scott Lawson » March 7th, 2013, 5:19 pm

John Brainard wrote:In a recent discussion at CARM I was told that QEOS HTAN hO LOGOS (Modern Greek) John 1:1 is identical to Kai Theos en o logos (koine)

Is this an accurate statement?

John

Dean_Poulos wrote:STHV ARCHi HTAV hO LOGOS, KAI hO LOGOS HTAV [MAZI ME] [TOV QEO,] KAI [hO LOGOS HTAV QEOS.]

Translation:

In the beginning was the word and the word was WITH WITH THE god and the word was a god.

Actual Modern Greek:

STHV ARCHi HTAV hO LOGOS, KAI hO LOGOS HTAV ME TOV QEOV, KAI QEOS HTAV hO LOGOS.

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

This is also possible, but really pushing it and I’d call it bad Modern Greek, however, it will render the above translation I suppose:

STHV ARCHi HTAV hO LOGOS, KAI hO LOGOS HTAV ME [TW QEW,] KAI QEOS HTAV hO LOGOS.

Dean, your comments go right to the heart of John's question as to whether or not there is translational equivalency in the Greek rendering of John 1:1c of the NWT with the Koine. You seem to see the fronting of ο λόγος as significant to the understanding of the Demotic. Do I understand you correctly?

John Brainard has presented θεός ήταν ο λόγος and θεὸς ἧν ὀ λόγος as being translationally equivalent but then goes on to muddy the waters by referring to the NWT which in fact has the reverse order - ο Λόγος ήταν θεός. Does Demotic really make the distinction that the anarthrous predicate noun's placement makes such a large difference?
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Re: Modern Greek verses Koine Greek John 1:1

Postby Scott Lawson » March 7th, 2013, 11:28 pm

Dean_Poulos wrote:Starting with my above broken code link “In the beginning was the word and the word was ***with with***.


Dean,
You indicate that μαζί με as a translation for πρὸς is poor Demotic and I hesitate to dispute it with you but I do note that the NWT uses the same construction at 1 Thessalonians 4:17 to translate ἄμα σὺν which is pleonastic. As has been pointed out before a pleonasm may give more precision. A quick search of μαζί με on Google turns up immediate results which may indicate that it is not too unusual a construction in Demotic. http://mazimetapaidiamou.blogspot.com/ ΜΑΖΙ ΜΕ ΤΑ ΠΑΙΔΙΑ ΜΟΥ....I do admit that, at first blush, it does seem to validate your observation that ***with with*** does not fit well as a translation of the more concise πρός.
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Re: Modern Greek verses Koine Greek John 1:1

Postby Dean_Poulos » March 8th, 2013, 2:32 am

OK Scott,

I suppose one could say (if they clung to a self-refuting strict evidentialist epistemology) that was Modern.

Dean...your above comment creates a bit of "cognitive dissonance" for me...


Now you know how Clint feels each day and Hitch as well; before he passed away. :D

Enough of my misplaced jokes. I'm glad you found that blog and I will address it.

Sooo....you are indeed saying that the translators of the NWT in Greek stuttered and made errors in "Modern Demotic" or Romaic. Yes?


In all seriousness, while the stutter comment was lighthearted, to clarify; it is simply wrong based on all texts. (Howwever, the Blog is an excellent find) Technically, while it may be classified as a redundancy or grammatical tautology such as (He kept it from his friends that he was a keeping a secret) or (He kept it from his friends that he was a secret drinker), there is more going on.

When you read the text above you know it is bad English. When I read the JWV or NWV it’s more than bad Greek. There is an agenda. I’ll explain and provide another clear example.

MAZI ME = with with and the blog. The Watchtower would argue they are simply trying to emphasize God was [together with] Jesus at the beginning (puzzling in and of itself). However, that does not work in Modern Greek to stand true to the original text.

By rendering MAZI ME as (together with) this intentionally diminishes the Godhead. To say Jesus was [together with] God tells a Greek reader that a relationship exists which is no different than two friends who happen to be at a movie together (The Blog).

A personal example that would annoy my wife: I’m talking on the phone to a friend and say:

είμαι [μαζί με] τήν γυναίκα μοῦ

Once I hung up the phone, I’d be met with a cross look (no dinner) and something to the effect of: (Did you tell Nick you were with me or the dog?)

I would immediately know she caught my careless and very, very bad Greek, with respect to my wife.

είμαι μαζί τήν γυναίκα μοῦ (I am with my wife) to a Greek instinctively implies the oneness of the marriage bond.

I mentioned it is not only John 1.1. I used 1 Cor 13.1 as an example, however, here is a much more critical one and I think a pattern will become clear.

John 10:30

ἐγὼ καὶ ὁ πατὴρ ἕν ἐσμεν.

The Father and I are one.

I’m now out of my comfort zone, being a beginner grammatically with respect to Koine, so I’ll be asking:

With ἐσμεν being (I think) the FPP indicative, I am now guessing it could be rendered: The Father and I are one essence. Yes? No?

If so, then does “the Word was with God” have the same force??? (aspect???) as I read I John 10:30?

By that I am trying to say that simply reading the words come through to me as one essence, not two persons, not in John 1.1.

The JWV works hard to break this essence apart; it’s all over the place in John.

Back to my comfort area with the added example and a glaring one at that.

John 10.30 is rendered thus and called modern.

Εγώ καί ὁ Πατέρας είμαστε ἔνα.

eίμαστε = 1PP

I and the Father (we are) one. Yes, as is my naval and the universe we are also one.

The pattern is consistant is attempting to break up the oneness as well as the distinct personhood of the Trinity.

You indicate that μαζί με as a translation for πρὸς is poor Demotic and I hesitate to dispute it with you but I do note that the NWT uses the same construction at 1 Thessalonians 4:17 to translate ἄμα σὺν which is pleonastic.


If by pleonastic you mean a redundant, tautology, e.g., burning fire, and not an idiomatic tautology, I would agree. If not, you're way over my head at this point.

Dean, your comments go right to the heart of John's question as to whether or not there is translational equivalency in the Greek rendering of John 1:1c of the NWT with the Koine. You seem to see the fronting of ο λόγος as significant to the understanding of the Demotic. Do I understand you correctly?


Yes, as alluded to above.

John Brainard has presented θεός ήταν ο λόγος and θεὸς ἧν ὀ λόγος as being translationally equivalent but then goes on to muddy the waters by referring to the NWT which in fact has the reverse order - ο Λόγος ήταν θεός. Does Demotic really make the distinction that the anarthrous predicate noun's placement makes such a large difference?


Scott, I will need to have another look at what John said again tomorrow. I had initially thought he had mixed it in with the Katharevousa. If not, of course there is no difference with respect to a substantive without a direct article. There is no indirect article in modern Greek or Koine Greek. I'm assuming this is what you're asking, correct? (here I am out of the comfort zone again) :oops:

However, if it was the Katharevousa

Εν αρχή ήτο ο Λόγος, και ο Λόγος ήτο παρά τω Θεώ, και Θεός ήτο ο Λόγος.

It may hurt my eyes, but if ήτο is 3PS and if παρά which in modern means above or over, but in Koine means more than (once again, I’m treading in muddy waters) BDAG which renders παρά as a: “marker of extension from the side of, from (the side of) w. local sense preserved, used w. verbs of coming, going, sending, originating, going out, etc.” then perhaps it is correct, however, I still don't get it and never heard ήτο.

Perhaps I need to go further into BDAG, however, I’ll need to refrain at this point, since pointing out John 1 has nothing to do with who I may believe Proceeds (going out) from the Father and who I may believe is Given by the Son is a clear violation of b-Greek policy, no?

Besides, Greeks who become Baptists should not be discussing issues such as the Filioque. :|
:
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