Hebrews 6:1 φερωμεθα

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abigail.hunter
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Hebrews 6:1 φερωμεθα

Post by abigail.hunter »

Hi, I am new here. This is my first post to this forum. ;)

I come across this verb in Hebrews 6:1 φερωμεθα

διο αφεντες τον της αρχης του χριστου λογον επι την τελειοτητα φερωμεθα μη παλιν θεμελιον καταβαλλομενοι μετανοιας απο νεκρων εργων και πιστεως επι θεον,

My question is how can this verb be subjunctive and passive at the same time? From my understanding, this is a hortatory subjunctive. Following are some examples of the English translations,

KJV Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

NET Therefore we must progress beyond the elementary instructions about Christ and move on to maturity, not laying this foundation again: repentance from dead works and faith in God,

ESV Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

To me, the action φερωμεθα is our human action, where we should be actively 'move on'. Yet, the voice is 'passive'.
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David Lim
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Re: Hebrews 6:1 φερωμεθα

Post by David Lim »

abigail.hunter wrote:Hi, I am new here. This is my first post to this forum. ;)

I come across this verb in Hebrews 6:1 φερωμεθα

διο αφεντες τον της αρχης του χριστου λογον επι την τελειοτητα φερωμεθα μη παλιν θεμελιον καταβαλλομενοι μετανοιας απο νεκρων εργων και πιστεως επι θεον,

My question is how can this verb be subjunctive and passive at the same time? From my understanding, this is a hortatory subjunctive. Following are some examples of the English translations,

KJV Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

NET Therefore we must progress beyond the elementary instructions about Christ and move on to maturity, not laying this foundation again: repentance from dead works and faith in God,

ESV Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

To me, the action φερωμεθα is our human action, where we should be actively 'move on'. Yet, the voice is 'passive'.
Hello! Welcome! :) We currently seem to have many members but not many who post. I think it should indeed be passive, just as in Acts 27:15,17, Heb 9:16, 1 Pet 1:13, 2 Pet 1:17,18,21. I do not know why even the ASV translates in the active voice, but from what I see it is just:
[Heb 6] [1] hence having left the word of the principle of Christ, may we be brought to the completeness, not again laying down [a] foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith to God.
Anyway just because a verb is passive does not mean that it implies no action on the part of the subject, which would be clear from the context. In other words, it says, "may we allow ourselves to be brought to the completeness".
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Re: Hebrews 6:1 φερωμεθα

Post by cwconrad »

David Lim wrote:
abigail.hunter wrote:Hi, I am new here. This is my first post to this forum. ;)

I come across this verb in Hebrews 6:1 φερωμεθα

διο αφεντες τον της αρχης του χριστου λογον επι την τελειοτητα φερωμεθα μη παλιν θεμελιον καταβαλλομενοι μετανοιας απο νεκρων εργων και πιστεως επι θεον,

My question is how can this verb be subjunctive and passive at the same time? From my understanding, this is a hortatory subjunctive. Following are some examples of the English translations,

KJV Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

NET Therefore we must progress beyond the elementary instructions about Christ and move on to maturity, not laying this foundation again: repentance from dead works and faith in God,

ESV Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

To me, the action φερωμεθα is our human action, where we should be actively 'move on'. Yet, the voice is 'passive'.
I think it should indeed be passive, just as in Acts 27:15,17, Heb 9:16, 1 Pet 1:13, 2 Pet 1:17,18,21. I do not know why even the ASV translates in the active voice, but from what I see it is just:
[Heb 6] [1] hence having left the word of the principle of Christ, may we be brought to the completeness, not again laying down [a] foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith to God.
Anyway just because a verb is passive does not mean that it implies no action on the part of the subject, which would be clear from the context. In other words, it says, "may we allow ourselves to be brought to the completeness".
Τhe translators did not go amiss. φερώμεθα is not passive but middle. We've had this sort of question before about so-called passive imperatives: How can you tell people to be acted upon by some other person or force? You can't; rather you tell them to consent to such a process and actively pursue it. It is not passive at all but middle. I think that Abigail understood the meaning correctly and correctly saw the problem in understanding the form as passive. I'm not at all saying that the other passages to which David calls attention aren't passive, but this one certainly is not. The verb is intransitive -- or one might say that this is a middle of a reflexive sort, archaic English "betake oneself" "move purposively."

Verbal voice in ancient Greek is badly taught in many textbooks of ancient Greek. You may find my web page on these matters helpful: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/GrkVc.html
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
David Lim
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Re: Hebrews 6:1 φερωμεθα

Post by David Lim »

cwconrad wrote:
David Lim wrote:Τhe translators did not go amiss. φερώμεθα is not passive but middle. We've had this sort of question before about so-called passive imperatives: How can you tell people to be acted upon by some other person or force? You can't; rather you tell them to consent to such a process and actively pursue it. It is not passive at all but middle. I think that Abigail understood the meaning correctly and correctly saw the problem in understanding the form as passive. I'm not at all saying that the other passages to which David calls attention aren't passive, but this one certainly is not. The verb is intransitive -- or one might say that this is a middle of a reflexive sort, archaic English "betake oneself" "move purposively."

Verbal voice in ancient Greek is badly taught in many textbooks of ancient Greek. You may find my web page on these matters helpful: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/GrkVc.html
Oh yes the form is middle-passive. But then why is it that LSJ implies that the subject is actually "being borne/brought" by something passively? I agree that for one to heed this exhortation in Heb 6:1 he would have to actively consent to "being brought to the completeness", but I do not see why it is impossible for the meaning of the words themselves to be passive. English has something similar, "may it be revealed by God" (I do not quite think it should be considered as "be" + adjective because the non-imperative form has exactly the same verb construction, "it was revealed by God", which is the passive form of "God revealed it.").
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cwconrad
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Re: Hebrews 6:1 φερωμεθα

Post by cwconrad »

David Lim wrote:
cwconrad wrote:
David Lim wrote:Τhe translators did not go amiss. φερώμεθα is not passive but middle. We've had this sort of question before about so-called passive imperatives: How can you tell people to be acted upon by some other person or force? You can't; rather you tell them to consent to such a process and actively pursue it. It is not passive at all but middle. I think that Abigail understood the meaning correctly and correctly saw the problem in understanding the form as passive. I'm not at all saying that the other passages to which David calls attention aren't passive, but this one certainly is not. The verb is intransitive -- or one might say that this is a middle of a reflexive sort, archaic English "betake oneself" "move purposively."

Verbal voice in ancient Greek is badly taught in many textbooks of ancient Greek. You may find my web page on these matters helpful: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/GrkVc.html
Oh yes the form is middle-passive. But then why is it that LSJ implies that the subject is actually "being borne/brought" by something passively? I agree that for one to heed this exhortation in Heb 6:1 he would have to actively consent to "being brought to the completeness", but I do not see why it is impossible for the meaning of the words themselves to be passive. English has something similar, "may it be revealed by God" (I do not quite think it should be considered as "be" + adjective because the non-imperative form has exactly the same verb construction, "it was revealed by God", which is the passive form of "God revealed it.").
I continue to think that the translators got this right, that they have rendered it with an intransitive verb of self-propulsion because that's the proper force of a middle verb here, not a periphrasis for what ought otherwise to be understood as propulsion by an external agency. The author's conception of spiritual progress is not one of waiting for the Spirit to waft the believer off to where he wants to go, but rather of arduous forward progress into which the believer strains his efforts. The entire treatise is an exhortation to act, not to be acted upon. Of course the form is middle-passive; but the sense is not passive, there is really no notion here of an external agent or external instrument accounting for the forward progress. I have no idea what the talk about "being revealed by God" has to do with the discussion of the meaning of φερώμεθα. Again, we are here dealing with a hortatory 1 pl. subjunctive; what's comparable is exhortations such as πληροῦσθε in Eph. 5:18 (καὶ μὴ μεθύσκεσθε οἴνῳ, ἐν ᾧ ἐστιν ἀσωτία, ἀλλὰ πληροῦσθε ἐν πνεύματι); some versions may convey that as "let yourselves be filled with Spirit" but as "getting drunk" is an action of the drinker, so filling one's spiritual lungs with the Spirit is a deliberate process that the believer is urged to undertake.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
timothy_p_mcmahon
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Re: Hebrews 6:1 φερωμεθα

Post by timothy_p_mcmahon »

Professor Conrad:

Love your description of the MP imperative as "consent to such a process and actively pursue it." Would you view in similar terms the 3rd-person imperative? I'm thinking of a text such as Colossians 2:16...

μη ουν τις υμας κρινετω εν βρωσει η εν ποσει η εν μερει εορτης η νουμηνιας η σαββατων

Is this (A) a command issued to the general public (more like a wish) not to judge the Colossians; (B) a command to the Colossians not to permit anyone to judge them (i.e., if anyone judges them they should refute it or at least not allow the judgment to affect their actions); (C) a command to the Colossians not to act in such a way as to invite anyone else to judge them (not to give anyone an occasion to judge them by acting improperly in this regard); or (D) something else altogether?
David Lim
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Re: Hebrews 6:1 φερωμεθα

Post by David Lim »

cwconrad wrote:I continue to think that the translators got this right, that they have rendered it with an intransitive verb of self-propulsion because that's the proper force of a middle verb here, not a periphrasis for what ought otherwise to be understood as propulsion by an external agency. The author's conception of spiritual progress is not one of waiting for the Spirit to waft the believer off to where he wants to go, but rather of arduous forward progress into which the believer strains his efforts. The entire treatise is an exhortation to act, not to be acted upon. Of course the form is middle-passive; but the sense is not passive, there is really no notion here of an external agent or external instrument accounting for the forward progress. I have no idea what the talk about "being revealed by God" has to do with the discussion of the meaning of φερώμεθα. Again, we are here dealing with a hortatory 1 pl. subjunctive; what's comparable is exhortations such as πληροῦσθε in Eph. 5:18 (καὶ μὴ μεθύσκεσθε οἴνῳ, ἐν ᾧ ἐστιν ἀσωτία, ἀλλὰ πληροῦσθε ἐν πνεύματι); some versions may convey that as "let yourselves be filled with Spirit" but as "getting drunk" is an action of the drinker, so filling one's spiritual lungs with the Spirit is a deliberate process that the believer is urged to undertake.
Never mind the English phrase I brought up; it was actually meant to be an example of something that many do not classify as a passive verb but which is really that in my opinion. I agree that the entire text is an exhortation to act, but I still disagree that it should be translated that way because there is no need to consider the verb itself not passive. There is an external agent, God, who is the unspoken one who would bring them to completeness. Similarly there are external agents in Eph 5:18, wine, which makes one drunk, and the spirit, which fills the believers. Wine can make a person drunk, but of course it usually means that the person went to drink it. Likewise, one cannot be filled in spirit by the spirit unless one seeks to be filled thus, which includes not getting drunk by wine among other things. Similarly those referred to in Heb 6:1 have to leave the word of the principle of Christ and not lay again a foundation of repentance and of faith and go on in their pursuit of God, but it is God who brings them to completeness and not themselves.
timothy_p_mcmahon wrote:Professor Conrad:

Love your description of the MP imperative as "consent to such a process and actively pursue it." Would you view in similar terms the 3rd-person imperative? I'm thinking of a text such as Colossians 2:16...

μη ουν τις υμας κρινετω εν βρωσει η εν ποσει η εν μερει εορτης η νουμηνιας η σαββατων

Is this (A) a command issued to the general public (more like a wish) not to judge the Colossians; (B) a command to the Colossians not to permit anyone to judge them (i.e., if anyone judges them they should refute it or at least not allow the judgment to affect their actions); (C) a command to the Colossians not to act in such a way as to invite anyone else to judge them (not to give anyone an occasion to judge them by acting improperly in this regard); or (D) something else altogether?
If it is a multiple choice question, I would pick B. But I think it is more like: "do not give heed to anyone judging you in food or in drink or in respect of [a] feast or new-moons or sabbaths." But this is because of the context of the text of course, because the writer judges such judgement as useless and even harmful.
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Re: Hebrews 6:1 φερωμεθα

Post by abigail.hunter »

Thank you for discussing.

According to BDAG Lexicon, φερω could mean...

3. to cause to follow a certain course in direction or conduct, move out of position, drive, the pass. can be variously rendered: be moved, be driven, let oneself be moved

a. lit., by wind and weather
b. fig., of the Spirit of God, by whom people are moved
c. also of the wind itself
d. of various other entities: of fragrance, Of writings, Of spiritual development

Can I render this verse as follow,

"Therefore, as we were leaving the elementary doctrine of Christ towards perfection, let us be moved on (by the Spirit or natural spiritual development), which means we no longer laying a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,"
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Re: Hebrews 6:1 φερωμεθα

Post by cwconrad »

timothy_p_mcmahon wrote:Professor Conrad:

Love your description of the MP imperative as "consent to such a process and actively pursue it." Would you view in similar terms the 3rd-person imperative? I'm thinking of a text such as Colossians 2:16...

Μὴ οὖν τις ὑμᾶς κρινέτω ἐν βρώσει καὶ ἐν πόσει ἢ ἐν μέρει ἑορτῆς ἢ νεομηνίας ἢ σαββάτων

Is this (A) a command issued to the general public (more like a wish) not to judge the Colossians; (B) a command to the Colossians not to permit anyone to judge them (i.e., if anyone judges them they should refute it or at least not allow the judgment to affect their actions); (C) a command to the Colossians not to act in such a way as to invite anyone else to judge them (not to give anyone an occasion to judge them by acting improperly in this regard); or (D) something else altogether?
It seems to me that this question -- insofar as it's not stuck on opposed conceptions about the voice of φερώμεθα, on which matter there's no agreement -- has moved to a secondary level that may belong elsewhere in the forum, namely, How should we understand the intent of imperatives and adequately convert them to English or another target language, especially when they are not straightforward 2 sg. or pl. active exhortations to perform an action?

A question that recurs on B-Greek from time to time regards the common English equivalents of the first person hortatory subjunctive expressions (" let us xxx ... ") and third-person sg. or pl. imperatives ("let him/her/it/them xxx ... "). The question raised has been, "Are we really giving permission to the person or persons addressed to act? Is that what "let" means?" I can only speak for two or three languages I know something about, but German uses the auxiliary "lass/en" just as English uses "let" in such expressions, and so French uses "laissez" and even Koine Greek sometimes uses ἄφες and ἄφετε with an infinitive.

I think that there's a range of possible semantic force to these imperative expressions. With regard to the first-person hortatory expressions, Greek ἀρχώμεθα or English "Let's begin" can, I think, run the gamut from meaning, "If you want my advice, we should start" to an indignant, "Enough of this shillyshallying! Stop talking and get started!" I think the same is true of the third-person imperatives. When Paul writes in 1 Cor. 14:34 αἱ γυναῖκες ἐν ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις σιγάτωσαν, I think he is laying down a rule to be obeyed: telling women in the the congregation at Corinth that they must keep silent in their gatherings and also telling the men of that congregation not put up with women speaking in those gatherings. It could be argued that this is not a rule, but only a suggestion or a piece of advice offered. I interpret it to mean he's laying down a rule.

On the other hand, I think that the force of μὴ ὑμᾶς κρινέτω in Col 2:16 is laying down a rule for the congregation rather than for the potential troublemakers who would find fault with the congregation for their practice with regard to their ritual actions. That is to say, I think that the force is "You are not to listen to anyone who finds fault with your behavior in these matters1"

Another of these third-person imperatives that's been questioned on B-Greek heretofore is how we are to understand the petitions of the Lord's Prayer, Matt. 6:10 ἐλθέτω ἡ βασιλεία σου· γενηθήτω τὸ θέλημά σου, ὡς ἐν οὐρανῷ καὶ ἐπὶ γῆς· These cannot really be understood as addressed to "God's kingdom" or "God's will" as direct commands, as if "the kingdom" and "God's will" were persons who could obey a command. Rather they are petitions, expressions of the speaker's fervent desire that these hopes may come to consummation: that God's royal will may become supreme and all people should obey it.

Perhaps this is simply obvious: CONTEXT here as generally governs the interpretation of particular instances of these hortatory first-person subjunctives and third-person imperatives. They may in particular cases range from suggestions to offering advice, to strong exhortation, to laying down absolute rules and prohibitions.What it may be in a particular case will be a matter of how the reader understands the context. As the phrase in Mark's gospel puts it, ὁ ἀναγινώσκων νοείτω.

Finally, to bring this discussion of interpretation of imperatives back to its starting-point, I think that all middle-passive imperative forms call for a positive behavioral response by the person or persons addressed, something more, I think, than telling them, "Sit still and wait for something to happen."
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
Mark Lightman
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Re: Hebrews 6:1 φερωμεθα

Post by Mark Lightman »

Abigail asked: Can I render this verse as follow,

"Therefore, as we were leaving the elementary doctrine of Christ towards perfection, let us be moved on (by the Spirit or natural spiritual development), which means we no longer laying a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,"
Hi, Abigail,

Yes, you have captured the sense of the verse quite well.

On the other hand, quite often, in readings outside the GNT, I have seen φέρομαι used as a virtual synonym for πορεύομαι/ἔρχομαι/βαίνω in the simple sense of “I go,” with no passive or arguably no middle (other than intransitivity) force. I’m not saying φερώμεθα in Heb 6:1 means only “let us go forth to perfection,” but it might mean only that. It might have meant only that to the first hearers of Hebrews who heard the word φέρομαι thousands of times in a non-theological context before hearing it here.
..German uses the auxiliary "lass/en" just as English uses "let" in such expressions...


Hi, Carl,

One thinks of President Kennedy, the original jelly doughnut: If anyone doubts that the future of the human civilization lies with representative democracy, "let them come to Berlin." How would you say that in Greek?

ἔλθατε πρὸς τὸν Βερλιν.

πρὸς τὸν Βερλιν φερώμεθα.


Nowadays one might say, “Let us go to Syria.” :twisted:
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